Rosamund de la HeyMainstreet trading company, st boswellsFormer children's marketing director at Bloomsbury Publishing, Rosamund de la Hey joins us for this week’s bookseller feature to tell us how she went from London-based publishing to running a bustling destination bookshop in the Scottish Borders.
So she brought her over, especially from Amsterdam, and that in itself was pretty mind-blowing, I think we had about 80 people and the atmosphere in the room was breathtaking. People were practically in tears, also laughing. She just was wonderful. She really was. So that's one of my absolute highlights that I think will stay with me forever. |
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JR: Roz, it’s so lovely to catch you. Thank you for your time. How’s life? How's business?
RDLH: It's busy. It's good, yeah. The cafe is going absolutely gangbusters, which tides us over. But it's very busy generally. And I remain amazed that people come in and buy books every day, and that's very nice, and thank goodness they do. We had a very busy start to the year with events and we always have a lull around now because of the Borders Book Festival, because it has a big halo effect around us. So May events have to be no-brainers, or it doesn't really work. And the same is true really in July and August. So we just take a little bit of a pause quite often at this time.
JR: Sure. And do you find a lot of your locals disappear during the summer?
RDLH: Yeah, in the July, definitely. Because obviously, we break up earlier. In the early days, we used to have the first two weeks of July, it was called The Phoney War, because basically all our locals went away and then you suddenly notice in the third week of July - I think the English schools break up then, right? - and suddenly, boom, it hits. August is always insane, which is great, and then it doesn't really stop ‘till Christmas.
JR: Which must be nice although it doesn't give you much time to rest.
RDLH: No, that is the thing. Also because the event schedule in autumn is always, as you know, much more significant - and that is true this year. It's all kind of organised for this year, but we haven't made an announcement yet. I mean, unless it’s a really super no-brainer, the doors are closed.
I remember years ago saying to a publisher, ‘The schedule's full, I'm really sorry’, but I didn't explain fully - you had to be so delicate - and as a result, they didn't offer me Doddie Weir. Which he said completely straight-faced, ‘Oh, but you said your schedule was full.’ I was like, ‘Well not for Doddie!’
JR: Yeah, you can make room for something that's a guaranteed sellout!
RDLH: Yes, but it's a very delicate email to send to a publisher as you know. So it's striking that balance and actually the good ones you can just be direct with and I think, I mean my policy because I don't know about you, but my email management is either if I don't reply really quickly I might never reply. So when we're offered something that a publisher's been kind enough to email about, I try and reply really quickly with a response.
JR: Well, you've got so much to juggle with the business. I want to start right at the beginning for people who may not know the area or don’t know some of the history behind the bookshop and the building. So, St. Boswells, it's what, a population of less than 800 people?
RDLH: Yeah.
JR: It’s roughly equidistant between Newcastle and Edinburgh. You've got such a great passing clientele, you've got that kind of tourist connection, of people making a pit stop, as it were.
RDLH: Yeah, very much so.
JR: I was wondering if you could give us a little bit of an introduction to the shop’s history and how it fits in your little part of the world.
RDLH: Sure. I mean, the general reaction when we talked to people about it or when the locals heard was, ‘Are you insane?’ I had several phone calls from my parents' generation kind of going, ‘Now, listen, we really need to have a chat.’ Which was, you know, they were coming from a good place but it was phenomenally patronising at the same time.
Going right back to the beginning, just before I left Bloomsbury I was sitting in a meeting with the sales team and Nigel [Newton, Chief Executive] and Nielsen were doing a presentation. And you know, they divide the country into a percentage turnover, a year-on-year kind of thing. I still remember it, they had the borders and it was percentage year-on-year down by 16% and the whole room kind of quietly looked at me, a few smirks, and a few, ‘Are you ok?’ kind of responses. And my reaction was, ‘Well, there clearly aren't enough places to buy books and it’s all going to Amazon, so you're not really getting their demographic accurately’, which I think was true. But ironically, the one bookshop that was was in a tiny little, but very good, very traditional sort of small market town centre bookshop in Melrose, which was run by my then boss Sarah Odedina’s mum. And I'd always known that and I've met her over the years a few times. In fact, one of my plans for Harry Potter book seven was to do the launch there because it was so tiny, as a kind of surprise to the world thing. Anyway, nobody was listening at that point but I still think it would have been really good and Jo [JK Rowling] would have loved it.
Anyway, so she was actually selling the shop at the same time. That wasn't why we did it but it was interesting. And I was relieved in a way, I would never have wanted to be in competition with her, but actually, it's far enough away in rural terms, I would say. But it was quite handy. So really, the essence for me is if you look on a map, I mean, as you described, halfway up to Edinburgh and Newcastle, and then if you do a kind of a circle around from us within 10 miles you hit all the key market towns.
But what I didn't know, because we had only lived in the area for three years or four years, was just how much rivalry there is within the Borders and how proud of tradition. I really didn't know anything about the Common Ridings or anything because I'm a West Coaster. I know I don't sound it, but I am. So that was all new to me and actually, it's a tiny thing but it did occur to me, subsequently, I wonder whether it was helpful that we were not in one camp, because we don't because St Boswells is too small for Common Ridings, so we don't have that kind of tribal thing. I say this only because if you live in Hawick, you are not going to go to a bookshop in Melrose, you know, you're only going to go and watch the rugby to throw things at them.
RDLH: It's busy. It's good, yeah. The cafe is going absolutely gangbusters, which tides us over. But it's very busy generally. And I remain amazed that people come in and buy books every day, and that's very nice, and thank goodness they do. We had a very busy start to the year with events and we always have a lull around now because of the Borders Book Festival, because it has a big halo effect around us. So May events have to be no-brainers, or it doesn't really work. And the same is true really in July and August. So we just take a little bit of a pause quite often at this time.
JR: Sure. And do you find a lot of your locals disappear during the summer?
RDLH: Yeah, in the July, definitely. Because obviously, we break up earlier. In the early days, we used to have the first two weeks of July, it was called The Phoney War, because basically all our locals went away and then you suddenly notice in the third week of July - I think the English schools break up then, right? - and suddenly, boom, it hits. August is always insane, which is great, and then it doesn't really stop ‘till Christmas.
JR: Which must be nice although it doesn't give you much time to rest.
RDLH: No, that is the thing. Also because the event schedule in autumn is always, as you know, much more significant - and that is true this year. It's all kind of organised for this year, but we haven't made an announcement yet. I mean, unless it’s a really super no-brainer, the doors are closed.
I remember years ago saying to a publisher, ‘The schedule's full, I'm really sorry’, but I didn't explain fully - you had to be so delicate - and as a result, they didn't offer me Doddie Weir. Which he said completely straight-faced, ‘Oh, but you said your schedule was full.’ I was like, ‘Well not for Doddie!’
JR: Yeah, you can make room for something that's a guaranteed sellout!
RDLH: Yes, but it's a very delicate email to send to a publisher as you know. So it's striking that balance and actually the good ones you can just be direct with and I think, I mean my policy because I don't know about you, but my email management is either if I don't reply really quickly I might never reply. So when we're offered something that a publisher's been kind enough to email about, I try and reply really quickly with a response.
JR: Well, you've got so much to juggle with the business. I want to start right at the beginning for people who may not know the area or don’t know some of the history behind the bookshop and the building. So, St. Boswells, it's what, a population of less than 800 people?
RDLH: Yeah.
JR: It’s roughly equidistant between Newcastle and Edinburgh. You've got such a great passing clientele, you've got that kind of tourist connection, of people making a pit stop, as it were.
RDLH: Yeah, very much so.
JR: I was wondering if you could give us a little bit of an introduction to the shop’s history and how it fits in your little part of the world.
RDLH: Sure. I mean, the general reaction when we talked to people about it or when the locals heard was, ‘Are you insane?’ I had several phone calls from my parents' generation kind of going, ‘Now, listen, we really need to have a chat.’ Which was, you know, they were coming from a good place but it was phenomenally patronising at the same time.
Going right back to the beginning, just before I left Bloomsbury I was sitting in a meeting with the sales team and Nigel [Newton, Chief Executive] and Nielsen were doing a presentation. And you know, they divide the country into a percentage turnover, a year-on-year kind of thing. I still remember it, they had the borders and it was percentage year-on-year down by 16% and the whole room kind of quietly looked at me, a few smirks, and a few, ‘Are you ok?’ kind of responses. And my reaction was, ‘Well, there clearly aren't enough places to buy books and it’s all going to Amazon, so you're not really getting their demographic accurately’, which I think was true. But ironically, the one bookshop that was was in a tiny little, but very good, very traditional sort of small market town centre bookshop in Melrose, which was run by my then boss Sarah Odedina’s mum. And I'd always known that and I've met her over the years a few times. In fact, one of my plans for Harry Potter book seven was to do the launch there because it was so tiny, as a kind of surprise to the world thing. Anyway, nobody was listening at that point but I still think it would have been really good and Jo [JK Rowling] would have loved it.
Anyway, so she was actually selling the shop at the same time. That wasn't why we did it but it was interesting. And I was relieved in a way, I would never have wanted to be in competition with her, but actually, it's far enough away in rural terms, I would say. But it was quite handy. So really, the essence for me is if you look on a map, I mean, as you described, halfway up to Edinburgh and Newcastle, and then if you do a kind of a circle around from us within 10 miles you hit all the key market towns.
But what I didn't know, because we had only lived in the area for three years or four years, was just how much rivalry there is within the Borders and how proud of tradition. I really didn't know anything about the Common Ridings or anything because I'm a West Coaster. I know I don't sound it, but I am. So that was all new to me and actually, it's a tiny thing but it did occur to me, subsequently, I wonder whether it was helpful that we were not in one camp, because we don't because St Boswells is too small for Common Ridings, so we don't have that kind of tribal thing. I say this only because if you live in Hawick, you are not going to go to a bookshop in Melrose, you know, you're only going to go and watch the rugby to throw things at them.
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JR: Yeah, that's so funny, isn't it? You forget that it's like that.
RDLH: It is true. I don't know how much we get from from Hawick because it’s that little bit further away and it's the strongest most loyal hand in the Borders I would say from that point of view. So I'm sure they'd prefer to have their own bookshop. So it was all predicated on that and the fact that the market wasn't served and that my theory was that there were three different aspects to the market - there were families, the oldest - the grey market - and tourists, and that is exactly what we've got. So, that sort of makes it sound really easy but it it really wasn't because it was 2008 that we launched. Ironically, borrowing money was easier in 2007 than it was when we tried to do it again in 2012, to do the deli because by then banks had obviously collapsed and all the rules had changed. So in a way, we benefited from the slack rules the first time around. But at the same time, you had the bank collapse, you had a recession, you had Amazon, the proper rise of Amazon, and yeah, a global banking crisis. So it was ostensibly a terrible time to start. I mean, then my only light on the horizon to use as inspiration was Nic Bottomley (Mr B’s Emporium, Bath) and Patrick and Polly [Jaffé & Neale Bookshop, Chipping Norton]. So there were a handful of really incredible booksellers who were quite new to the game, not to bookselling in Patrick and Polly's case, but in Nick's case, completely new, and Juliet. So they were sort of my shining lights to be inspired by, and Hazel [Broadfoot, Village Books, Dulwich, obviously, but she'd been doing it forever. |
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And so she was sort of, she was reinventing the same wheel, but brilliantly. So yeah, they were sort of my mentors, particularly Hazel and Patrick, actually, they were amazing. And the whole trade, you know what it’s like, the whole trade was so incredibly supportive that I don't think we'd have got open if it hadn't been for Patrick, actually, he couldn't have been better.
JR: Wow, that’s brilliant. I was just down in Pooley Bridge talking to Al at Verey Books, just yesterday, actually. And they're relatively new to the game. Al was a teacher, a poet, he was a tourist guide, he'd been a reader his whole life, but decided to start the bookshop about two years ago.
And he managed to get a great spot, you know, Pooley Bridge in Ullswater. And I guess much like yourself, other than maybe a food stop, I guess there wasn't an awful lot going on to keep people in the area. I mean, a bookshop is a perfect way to allow people a slow browse when they’re not on the fells. But anyway, he was singing the praises of Patrick because he did a mentorship scheme with him.
RDLH: Yes. He's done a lot of that. I failed to get onto one of his courses years ago because the timings didn't work, but that's where he used to do an introduction to bookselling, which was a super popular course. And he's just very pragmatic about it. And I think some of his numbers game comes from, rather like Andy from Waterstones, from really good, original training and Hazel was the same actually. They're all Waterstones graduates. I really liked that number-crunching thing, the spreadsheet side of it.
I had some very kind help from a friend who was I think basically a forensic accountant, but he did this spreadsheet for me about starting the whole thing, and it made it real and it made it possible and I remember it well. It was really important to think it through that way and to be really business-minded like that and realistic and not do it from a romantic point, which I think was what most people think we did. But it really wasn't and we are and always have been a business. Profitable in a small way, but you know, less so at the moment actually with quite a few structural changes.
JR: Yeah, we can talk about that I guess. Let's focus on the shop just for the moment. You bought the building in 2007, extensive renovations, and the bookshop and cafe opened in June 2008. Then in 2012, you developed the barn, the deli and home and event space.
And so, with the building and the courtyard and everything else, it's quite an extensive plot, but could you give us an idea of the size of the bookshop itself?
RDLH: Sure. The bookshop - so, there's one room, the biggest room is entirely books. The biggest room exclusive to one thing is a book room. And then when we go through the archway to a slightly bigger space but I'd say it’s about half-and-half books to cafe. And we're always fighting each other for just an inch here and an inch there. At Christmas, we kind of nudged their way a bit because from the first of December until about the 18th the cafe goes quiet because all the locals are panicking about buying presents. Which is great. I love working in the shop then because we're selling a ton of books.
JR: Do you know roughly how many books you've got?
RDLH: I think it's usually between 8,000-10,000 titles, roughly. Obviously, there are multiples there but about that. It ebbs and flows. Luckily now we've got the brilliant Vicky on the team and our returns are signing more under control. So she's done an epic job in the last year.
So the whole lot including both buildings is 280 square meters. That doesn't include the event space, that's just the ground floor. Actually, it's worth saying that one of the things that I remember talking to Patrick about when we first opened in terms of the offering, is that he reckoned that in order to get people to travel and stay, and this was when he was discussing why he moved from the original little shop that he had, it was on the same square, he used to be on the same square, a bookshop and then next door was a little gift shop which they also ran, they were separate buildings I think. He said he realised that there was a sort of half-hour limit to people's time, so after a maximum of half an hour, usually much less, they would either buy a book and leave or just leave. And that's why they moved to the bigger premises. And so he reckoned in order to hold people you needed four reasons. So in the first shop, we did books, a cafe, we had an antique concession, and we did a little bit of gift, and then events overlaid that, but very gradually, we started quite slowly on events. You know, each one worked, but we didn't do a vast number initially. So in a way, the deli and the home were very much an extension of that, so we had started the principle, and originally the antiques did go into the home department and we cross-merchandised, which was really successful until it suddenly sort of just plateaued, and it felt like the antiques were holding us back a bit. And it wasn't really working for her either, so we managed to luckily remain very good friends but part company professionally, which worked well. So the four things were very important to us, and I think it does make sense, the destination thing.
JR: Yes, oh absolutely, and I guess so many people consider bookshops like yourselves and those that offer a little bit of something else, whether it's food, whether it is a deli or whatever, you know, they are bookshop pilgrimages. People travel quite far to visit you.
RDLH: Yes they do, they absolutely do, and then they enjoy telling us which is really nice. And we're sort of on that route now where, whether it's the grandchildren, the children and the grandchildren coming to stay for Easter, or whether it's friends coming from abroad and having heard about us through their local friends, it's always a really nice conversation because they've been looking forward to finding out what they've been hearing about, which is really nice.
JR: Yeah, that’s really lovely. And you've got a surprisingly large children's section for the stock you have.
RDLH: Yes. Well, I'm slightly biased. I've only had 14-plus years very much embedded in the children's world! And also, children's, in a way, my very, very original idea for running any bookshop was to be a children's only. And I'd always wanted, in my original game plan, six children's shops in Scotland, two in the South, two in central, two in the North. And then about three days in Hazel disabused me of that idea.
JR: The kids thing is obviously such a rewarding area to be in, but it can be so difficult sometimes, can't it?
RDLH: Oh, God, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Even though we didn't obviously progress with doing children's only, and Hazel was right, that was a good decision, [it was] partly also informed by this building. I've long given up the idea, but it reinforced that. But the children's department always had to be substantial, and it had to be in front of the till, so that we could see, and the teenage section, the young adult had to be out with the children's section, but still very much in my eye-line, which is exactly where it is, so they don't feel embarrassed going into the baby section.
But yet we can see if the parents are kind of going, is this okay? So that's really important too. And I remember worrying about having a barrier, so it's a bookcase barrier, because it was quite near the front door, so they wouldn't just run onto the street. It’s a busy road. Yeah. So yeah, so barrier for the kids, but also I suppose you need that eye line, don't you?
JR: And it helps to have that direct eye-line on your stock.
RDLH: Yes, we don't have that everywhere, I have to say.
JR: Well, no, but you go into some of these cavernous shops where there are corridors and multiple floors, and they've still only got two booksellers on site, and I'm just like, how do you manage that?
And actually, that leads me to my next question. Obviously, over the years you've had such a brilliant team, and I know that you've got a couple of new-ish additions. How large a team do you have currently?
JR: Wow, that’s brilliant. I was just down in Pooley Bridge talking to Al at Verey Books, just yesterday, actually. And they're relatively new to the game. Al was a teacher, a poet, he was a tourist guide, he'd been a reader his whole life, but decided to start the bookshop about two years ago.
And he managed to get a great spot, you know, Pooley Bridge in Ullswater. And I guess much like yourself, other than maybe a food stop, I guess there wasn't an awful lot going on to keep people in the area. I mean, a bookshop is a perfect way to allow people a slow browse when they’re not on the fells. But anyway, he was singing the praises of Patrick because he did a mentorship scheme with him.
RDLH: Yes. He's done a lot of that. I failed to get onto one of his courses years ago because the timings didn't work, but that's where he used to do an introduction to bookselling, which was a super popular course. And he's just very pragmatic about it. And I think some of his numbers game comes from, rather like Andy from Waterstones, from really good, original training and Hazel was the same actually. They're all Waterstones graduates. I really liked that number-crunching thing, the spreadsheet side of it.
I had some very kind help from a friend who was I think basically a forensic accountant, but he did this spreadsheet for me about starting the whole thing, and it made it real and it made it possible and I remember it well. It was really important to think it through that way and to be really business-minded like that and realistic and not do it from a romantic point, which I think was what most people think we did. But it really wasn't and we are and always have been a business. Profitable in a small way, but you know, less so at the moment actually with quite a few structural changes.
JR: Yeah, we can talk about that I guess. Let's focus on the shop just for the moment. You bought the building in 2007, extensive renovations, and the bookshop and cafe opened in June 2008. Then in 2012, you developed the barn, the deli and home and event space.
And so, with the building and the courtyard and everything else, it's quite an extensive plot, but could you give us an idea of the size of the bookshop itself?
RDLH: Sure. The bookshop - so, there's one room, the biggest room is entirely books. The biggest room exclusive to one thing is a book room. And then when we go through the archway to a slightly bigger space but I'd say it’s about half-and-half books to cafe. And we're always fighting each other for just an inch here and an inch there. At Christmas, we kind of nudged their way a bit because from the first of December until about the 18th the cafe goes quiet because all the locals are panicking about buying presents. Which is great. I love working in the shop then because we're selling a ton of books.
JR: Do you know roughly how many books you've got?
RDLH: I think it's usually between 8,000-10,000 titles, roughly. Obviously, there are multiples there but about that. It ebbs and flows. Luckily now we've got the brilliant Vicky on the team and our returns are signing more under control. So she's done an epic job in the last year.
So the whole lot including both buildings is 280 square meters. That doesn't include the event space, that's just the ground floor. Actually, it's worth saying that one of the things that I remember talking to Patrick about when we first opened in terms of the offering, is that he reckoned that in order to get people to travel and stay, and this was when he was discussing why he moved from the original little shop that he had, it was on the same square, he used to be on the same square, a bookshop and then next door was a little gift shop which they also ran, they were separate buildings I think. He said he realised that there was a sort of half-hour limit to people's time, so after a maximum of half an hour, usually much less, they would either buy a book and leave or just leave. And that's why they moved to the bigger premises. And so he reckoned in order to hold people you needed four reasons. So in the first shop, we did books, a cafe, we had an antique concession, and we did a little bit of gift, and then events overlaid that, but very gradually, we started quite slowly on events. You know, each one worked, but we didn't do a vast number initially. So in a way, the deli and the home were very much an extension of that, so we had started the principle, and originally the antiques did go into the home department and we cross-merchandised, which was really successful until it suddenly sort of just plateaued, and it felt like the antiques were holding us back a bit. And it wasn't really working for her either, so we managed to luckily remain very good friends but part company professionally, which worked well. So the four things were very important to us, and I think it does make sense, the destination thing.
JR: Yes, oh absolutely, and I guess so many people consider bookshops like yourselves and those that offer a little bit of something else, whether it's food, whether it is a deli or whatever, you know, they are bookshop pilgrimages. People travel quite far to visit you.
RDLH: Yes they do, they absolutely do, and then they enjoy telling us which is really nice. And we're sort of on that route now where, whether it's the grandchildren, the children and the grandchildren coming to stay for Easter, or whether it's friends coming from abroad and having heard about us through their local friends, it's always a really nice conversation because they've been looking forward to finding out what they've been hearing about, which is really nice.
JR: Yeah, that’s really lovely. And you've got a surprisingly large children's section for the stock you have.
RDLH: Yes. Well, I'm slightly biased. I've only had 14-plus years very much embedded in the children's world! And also, children's, in a way, my very, very original idea for running any bookshop was to be a children's only. And I'd always wanted, in my original game plan, six children's shops in Scotland, two in the South, two in central, two in the North. And then about three days in Hazel disabused me of that idea.
JR: The kids thing is obviously such a rewarding area to be in, but it can be so difficult sometimes, can't it?
RDLH: Oh, God, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Even though we didn't obviously progress with doing children's only, and Hazel was right, that was a good decision, [it was] partly also informed by this building. I've long given up the idea, but it reinforced that. But the children's department always had to be substantial, and it had to be in front of the till, so that we could see, and the teenage section, the young adult had to be out with the children's section, but still very much in my eye-line, which is exactly where it is, so they don't feel embarrassed going into the baby section.
But yet we can see if the parents are kind of going, is this okay? So that's really important too. And I remember worrying about having a barrier, so it's a bookcase barrier, because it was quite near the front door, so they wouldn't just run onto the street. It’s a busy road. Yeah. So yeah, so barrier for the kids, but also I suppose you need that eye line, don't you?
JR: And it helps to have that direct eye-line on your stock.
RDLH: Yes, we don't have that everywhere, I have to say.
JR: Well, no, but you go into some of these cavernous shops where there are corridors and multiple floors, and they've still only got two booksellers on site, and I'm just like, how do you manage that?
And actually, that leads me to my next question. Obviously, over the years you've had such a brilliant team, and I know that you've got a couple of new-ish additions. How large a team do you have currently?
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RDLH: Well, in the books team, we have two full-timers. So Vicky and Sarah. Vicky's mainly managing the shop floor and she's also, thank goodness, in charge of returns, and Sarah runs the website, and the social media, she helps me with the subscriptions, and she also helps cover the bookshop floor as well. And Jack, who's very sadly just moved to Edinburgh, he was three days a week. One of our holiday team has come back, in fact, she's back today, so she's going to cover temporarily for the summer. And then we're very lucky at the moment because it's a bit of a jigsaw, so Jen, who is currently doing maternity leave in the deli, is, when our deli manager comes back very soon full time, going to then work part-time in the deli, part-time in books. So in essence, you could call it two and a half booksellers plus me, but obviously, my time is very much split between many other things. I spend far too much time in the office.
JR: That is such a big part of the job and I think a lot of people forget about that. RDLH: Yeah. You know, in the early days, you just do two jobs and you're on the shop floor all day and you work all night, and that is quite killing. I don't recommend that as a strategy. |
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JR: As an overall business, then, because I know you've got plenty more people in the cafe as well, in the deli. What's your overall number?
RDLH: Well, in terms of actual people on the books, I think maybe 27 now. Yeah. Because we were at 30 and actually thankfully we're not at 30 currently. We're at 27. But I think it equates to roughly 17 full-time, which is a lot. That's obviously massively different from most independents. But the vast majority of that is in the kitchen and cafe, as you'd expect. All that annoying nonsense about, oh, a cup of coffee only costs 8p. No, it doesn't. That's a lie.
JR: Not when you've got 17 staff to pay. It must be a tricky balancing act, isn't it? Obviously, you want each element to work independently but you need some crossover as well. It’s amazing to see, and I've seen it so many times while I've been there, having people browsing books, having some coffee, and then a wander across the courtyard. Getting the whole experience.
RDLH: I think it massively enhances the whole experiential thing to use the dreadful word but it really does and actually what surprised me in the early days was some people who we really hadn't seen before just went to the deli and didn't come to the bookshop. As a customer, I would never have done that. But if it's your local and you know that's something you want, it was used as a convenience store, and that does still happen but the vast majority of people come and go into both buildings. We also merchandise a lot of books in the deli and home and sometimes we'll find that some books sell better over there or some books sell over there that we don't sell, we really can't sell. It's funny what gets picked up. And also in terms of staffing, it's still pretty much true that most people can do more than one department. So that is really helpful and makes a massive difference. If there's someone off sick or whatever it is, quite often we've had a really good phase between the deli and the cafe, where people who might have started over the years in the cafe, then were interested in learning about the deli. And they're mostly part-timers, but they're both so - I'm thinking of two members of staff. One, sadly, who's also just moved to Edinburgh, but he's been doing holiday work with us for years, all coming and going as he was travelling and stuff. And, you know, if we needed him in the cafe, absolutely no problem, he could just do it in a heartbeat. And the same with Isabelle, but lots of others before them have done that. And that makes a massive difference. And I'm forever grateful that I hadn't really had to make a coffee for about 12 years!
JR: Ha! I wasn't going to ask, actually, I wasn't going to put you on the spot!
RDLH: Not a coffee for a customer, I can tell you. In the early days, obviously, we did everything, but it was never a relaxing experience. I'm always so grateful and impressed when the cafe team is so calm and just get on with it and keep it under control, because it's just, my brain just explodes, I can't do it.
JR: As somebody who's worked in a cafe and a bookshop separately, I think it must be such a great opportunity for your team to offer them the flexibility of moving from one to the other. I know I would’ve loved that.
RDLH: Yeah, absolutely.
JR: And say somebody in the deli wanted to get into books or wanted to get into the publishing industry and wanted to learn a little bit before doing that. You’re the perfect spot to do that.
RDLH: Yeah, we've done a lot of that, actually. Vivian years ago went and spent a day at Canongate. And I know that with restarting the shop-floor publishers thing that I initiated when I was doing the BA presidency thing, I'm really glad they brought that back because she came back absolutely buzzing from her day at Canongate. It really informed her thinking for a long time, which was great, and, like you guys at Forum back in the day, you get asked by local radio to recommend books for Christmas or whatever. I got Vivian to do one of those, and she's like, ‘Oh no, no, no, no, no!’, and then she did it, and she was so proud of herself for doing it. So there's those sort of things, when it comes up it's a really lovely opportunity to encourage.
But also we talk a lot about the industry, and I probably bore for Britain about publishing.
JR: But I think it's important for bookshops to champion publishing as well though and not just the other way around. I think the kind of conversations we have in bookshops is just amazing. And so the breadth of what a bookseller can offer and the kind of knowledge that I think people sometimes underestimate about the industry and about publishing, and I'm not just talking about those people who come in with a self-published title or somebody who's like, you know, ‘Oh, I can write a kid's book’ - how many times have you heard that before?
RDLH: Oh, yes!
JR: I think it's just great that there's the opportunity within publishing and within bookselling to have those quite fluid crossovers.
RDLH: Definitely. I mean, Jack's a good example. He's been working on a book for ages and he's a seriously talented artist. And he will get there, he will be famous one day. And I have complete faith in that happening. So we've often talked about the trade and he's spent some time working with Lucy Jukes. I think he does still have, maybe he has different agents, but I know I saw Lucy last night at the Edinburgh Book Festival launch.
Oh my God. I just have to say, Allan Little. He blew the room away. He made the most incredible speech and I keep checking social media, and I'm amazed. I wish I had thought to record it because he was breathtaking and he was understandably very emotional and quite understandably angry. The position that they'd all been put in. Anyway, that's another story, but it was pretty mind-blowing.
JR: Yeah, and that just goes to show how well connected, not just you personally within within the industry, but how uniquely placed Mainstreet is. Obviously, you've got the Scottish conferences on your doorstep, you've also got the English conferences, but working with the BA and your experience with the BA must have added so much more to that.
With your positioning being relatively close to Edinburgh but not in the centre, how do you find the Scottish community has embraced the shop and how have they responded to the bookshop since started?
RDLH: If you think of the bookshops in Edinburgh, we started before, I think, any of the current players, including Mari [Moser, The Edinburgh Bookshop]. So in a way, we're kind of the originators in our context, but we're not competitive with any of them. You know what it's like, none of us are competitive. Well, we are individually competitive, but not with each other. And it's incredibly mutually supportive. Just like Edinburgh, they all have such a brilliantly clear and separate identity. They all have their own communities. They all have their own visual branded vibe because they're so distinct, that's why it works.
And I think had we’d been a city centre bookshop brand, if you like, we would have found our own way of doing that, and it probably would have been because it would be hybrid. I personally think it's a lovely, lovely community. Sometimes it's a shame that it takes us longer to get to Edinburgh to join in, but things like last night, I would always go up to, but you can't go to everything. But the same is true for London events, for publishers that are still incredibly London-focused. And you get all these invitations, as I'm sure you do to all these launches, and you know, once in a blue moon you can go. But that's okay. It's just geography, isn't it?
But I think in general, I think a huge amount of the positivity comes from the nucleus of the BA. And God, I can't tell you the difference, the very first AGM I went to when we first opened, there was so much upset in the room, so much negativity and anger, generally because everyone was really frightened about Amazon and about the recession. And the council were being really attacked. Tim Godfrey was being personally shouted at. I was really shocked actually. It was at Foyles, the old Foyles in the top room up they used to use as a sort of event space, and it was quite a depressing experience. And the difference now! It's a sea change. And I think that's because there's so many new players that have come in who have this positivity. They're not doing it as a retirement project. They're not thinking the world owes them a living. They're doing it as a force for good and a force for change and positivity and the BA has 100% embraced that. I think we're very lucky actually.
I got involved in the BA because for me it seemed normal because I was very involved in the PA because it’s the children's group and I really enjoyed that, I like the collegiate working thing, I always have. And I think it pays back because, for example, things like starting events for grown-up books and having all my contacts for kids I really didn't know any adult publicist. A lot of them were quite tough nuts to crack, so that's taken a lot of time. There's maybe a perception that it's easier because of my publishing background. It was very specific to my publishing background so it was a whole different type of contacts that I had to build but I've enjoyed doing that. That's not a bad thing, but it wasn't a walk in the park.
RDLH: Well, in terms of actual people on the books, I think maybe 27 now. Yeah. Because we were at 30 and actually thankfully we're not at 30 currently. We're at 27. But I think it equates to roughly 17 full-time, which is a lot. That's obviously massively different from most independents. But the vast majority of that is in the kitchen and cafe, as you'd expect. All that annoying nonsense about, oh, a cup of coffee only costs 8p. No, it doesn't. That's a lie.
JR: Not when you've got 17 staff to pay. It must be a tricky balancing act, isn't it? Obviously, you want each element to work independently but you need some crossover as well. It’s amazing to see, and I've seen it so many times while I've been there, having people browsing books, having some coffee, and then a wander across the courtyard. Getting the whole experience.
RDLH: I think it massively enhances the whole experiential thing to use the dreadful word but it really does and actually what surprised me in the early days was some people who we really hadn't seen before just went to the deli and didn't come to the bookshop. As a customer, I would never have done that. But if it's your local and you know that's something you want, it was used as a convenience store, and that does still happen but the vast majority of people come and go into both buildings. We also merchandise a lot of books in the deli and home and sometimes we'll find that some books sell better over there or some books sell over there that we don't sell, we really can't sell. It's funny what gets picked up. And also in terms of staffing, it's still pretty much true that most people can do more than one department. So that is really helpful and makes a massive difference. If there's someone off sick or whatever it is, quite often we've had a really good phase between the deli and the cafe, where people who might have started over the years in the cafe, then were interested in learning about the deli. And they're mostly part-timers, but they're both so - I'm thinking of two members of staff. One, sadly, who's also just moved to Edinburgh, but he's been doing holiday work with us for years, all coming and going as he was travelling and stuff. And, you know, if we needed him in the cafe, absolutely no problem, he could just do it in a heartbeat. And the same with Isabelle, but lots of others before them have done that. And that makes a massive difference. And I'm forever grateful that I hadn't really had to make a coffee for about 12 years!
JR: Ha! I wasn't going to ask, actually, I wasn't going to put you on the spot!
RDLH: Not a coffee for a customer, I can tell you. In the early days, obviously, we did everything, but it was never a relaxing experience. I'm always so grateful and impressed when the cafe team is so calm and just get on with it and keep it under control, because it's just, my brain just explodes, I can't do it.
JR: As somebody who's worked in a cafe and a bookshop separately, I think it must be such a great opportunity for your team to offer them the flexibility of moving from one to the other. I know I would’ve loved that.
RDLH: Yeah, absolutely.
JR: And say somebody in the deli wanted to get into books or wanted to get into the publishing industry and wanted to learn a little bit before doing that. You’re the perfect spot to do that.
RDLH: Yeah, we've done a lot of that, actually. Vivian years ago went and spent a day at Canongate. And I know that with restarting the shop-floor publishers thing that I initiated when I was doing the BA presidency thing, I'm really glad they brought that back because she came back absolutely buzzing from her day at Canongate. It really informed her thinking for a long time, which was great, and, like you guys at Forum back in the day, you get asked by local radio to recommend books for Christmas or whatever. I got Vivian to do one of those, and she's like, ‘Oh no, no, no, no, no!’, and then she did it, and she was so proud of herself for doing it. So there's those sort of things, when it comes up it's a really lovely opportunity to encourage.
But also we talk a lot about the industry, and I probably bore for Britain about publishing.
JR: But I think it's important for bookshops to champion publishing as well though and not just the other way around. I think the kind of conversations we have in bookshops is just amazing. And so the breadth of what a bookseller can offer and the kind of knowledge that I think people sometimes underestimate about the industry and about publishing, and I'm not just talking about those people who come in with a self-published title or somebody who's like, you know, ‘Oh, I can write a kid's book’ - how many times have you heard that before?
RDLH: Oh, yes!
JR: I think it's just great that there's the opportunity within publishing and within bookselling to have those quite fluid crossovers.
RDLH: Definitely. I mean, Jack's a good example. He's been working on a book for ages and he's a seriously talented artist. And he will get there, he will be famous one day. And I have complete faith in that happening. So we've often talked about the trade and he's spent some time working with Lucy Jukes. I think he does still have, maybe he has different agents, but I know I saw Lucy last night at the Edinburgh Book Festival launch.
Oh my God. I just have to say, Allan Little. He blew the room away. He made the most incredible speech and I keep checking social media, and I'm amazed. I wish I had thought to record it because he was breathtaking and he was understandably very emotional and quite understandably angry. The position that they'd all been put in. Anyway, that's another story, but it was pretty mind-blowing.
JR: Yeah, and that just goes to show how well connected, not just you personally within within the industry, but how uniquely placed Mainstreet is. Obviously, you've got the Scottish conferences on your doorstep, you've also got the English conferences, but working with the BA and your experience with the BA must have added so much more to that.
With your positioning being relatively close to Edinburgh but not in the centre, how do you find the Scottish community has embraced the shop and how have they responded to the bookshop since started?
RDLH: If you think of the bookshops in Edinburgh, we started before, I think, any of the current players, including Mari [Moser, The Edinburgh Bookshop]. So in a way, we're kind of the originators in our context, but we're not competitive with any of them. You know what it's like, none of us are competitive. Well, we are individually competitive, but not with each other. And it's incredibly mutually supportive. Just like Edinburgh, they all have such a brilliantly clear and separate identity. They all have their own communities. They all have their own visual branded vibe because they're so distinct, that's why it works.
And I think had we’d been a city centre bookshop brand, if you like, we would have found our own way of doing that, and it probably would have been because it would be hybrid. I personally think it's a lovely, lovely community. Sometimes it's a shame that it takes us longer to get to Edinburgh to join in, but things like last night, I would always go up to, but you can't go to everything. But the same is true for London events, for publishers that are still incredibly London-focused. And you get all these invitations, as I'm sure you do to all these launches, and you know, once in a blue moon you can go. But that's okay. It's just geography, isn't it?
But I think in general, I think a huge amount of the positivity comes from the nucleus of the BA. And God, I can't tell you the difference, the very first AGM I went to when we first opened, there was so much upset in the room, so much negativity and anger, generally because everyone was really frightened about Amazon and about the recession. And the council were being really attacked. Tim Godfrey was being personally shouted at. I was really shocked actually. It was at Foyles, the old Foyles in the top room up they used to use as a sort of event space, and it was quite a depressing experience. And the difference now! It's a sea change. And I think that's because there's so many new players that have come in who have this positivity. They're not doing it as a retirement project. They're not thinking the world owes them a living. They're doing it as a force for good and a force for change and positivity and the BA has 100% embraced that. I think we're very lucky actually.
I got involved in the BA because for me it seemed normal because I was very involved in the PA because it’s the children's group and I really enjoyed that, I like the collegiate working thing, I always have. And I think it pays back because, for example, things like starting events for grown-up books and having all my contacts for kids I really didn't know any adult publicist. A lot of them were quite tough nuts to crack, so that's taken a lot of time. There's maybe a perception that it's easier because of my publishing background. It was very specific to my publishing background so it was a whole different type of contacts that I had to build but I've enjoyed doing that. That's not a bad thing, but it wasn't a walk in the park.
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JR: A lot of the booksellers that I've been speaking to recently, maybe with the exception of Nic [Bottomley] - Nic's obviously in quite a similar position to yourself - but a lot of the booksellers I'm talking to are either lifers and they've done the Waterstones thing and then later in life taken on a bookshop and they've been doing it for 10 years or more, sometimes 20 plus years, or they've been in it for like two-to-three years, or they've started just before the pandemic. And what's been amazing to see is actually how active the bookselling community has been in the last five years or so and how fruitful that environment has been. I mean, economically it's been a very difficult time for some. But I think people are thinking more creatively than ever, and I think people are using that post-pandemic hangover as a reason to make a change.
How did the pandemic affect you and do you think you've changed your thinking in terms of business and the bookshop since then or has it been a little more consistent? RDLH: I think we probably had a very similar experience to a lot of people. In essence, everyone was furloughed apart from myself and one other called Courtney, who, I don't know if you met Courtney. |
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She had quite recently joined the team and she was pretty tech savvy so she was critical in terms of helping us to get online overnight. Dan [Fridd, Edelweiss] was of course amazing. So that was pretty intense and it kept us going. But in all honesty, if the government hadn't kept us going, I'm not sure we would have survived. And I'm sure that's true for about 80% of bookshops. That was quite a terrifying prospect.
The hardest thing for us, I think, and I'm sure that's true for a lot, is what also in our case, because we have such a big team. It was actually managing the ebbs and flows where they kept locking up, opening up, locking up, opening up. And people's emotional reaction to that was much stronger than I'd expected. So managing all of that and making people feel safe and comfortable and also once we knew that we weren't going to be sunk by that, that was really hard.
It was interesting to learn a lot about online selling. And in a way, that was quite exhilarating. And we had so many lovely reactions, the kind of care packs we sent out and just really gorgeous emails and phone calls. And the phone rang off the hook the first few weeks because people just wanted someone to talk to. And they were ringing out just seeing if we could get them books. And then it became a long chat. So every phone call was a long one, which actually, sometimes it was tricky because we had a lot of other juggling balls going on.
But on the other hand, it was so flattering that people wanted to speak to us. And the same was true when you delivered the books and you'd have a chat over a fence or across the road or whatever. And so that was kind of amazing, it was quite mentally exhausting but that was true for everyone.
But I would say that the transition back to being fully open and operating in the normal way, that long, long, long tale was the toughest bit for us. And the online thing, it jump-started us. We got a grant, which meant that we then tried a new website, which took much longer than it should have done. It was lucky it was a grant because we wouldn't have done it otherwise. Anyway, as it transpired it was the wrong format for us, really. It was a sledgehammer to crack a nut. And so we finally moved away from that last year, thank the Lord, and did a new website for significantly less cash and about a six-week turnaround - we had a really wonderful designer who just made everything easy. So we're in a good place on that now that it's taken a while to get there. And I think on the kind of online selling thing, I know a lot of bookshops have maintained that and really developed it. I'd say we're ticking along and we're doing, you know, the book subscriptions are going really well, pre-orders are building, and our gift boxes remain steady, particularly obviously around sort of gifting season. And the nice thing about them is that they go down really well, so it's very satisfying from that point of view. And actually, the second big lockdown allowed us to renovate a space - you probably won't have seen it because it's sort of a hidden space upstairs - which was kind of disused and derelict, so we managed to make that usable. So that's office space and a packing floor, which is fantastic. So we're really lucky to have that and it's good to have done it for the building.
JR: Yeah, because you do have an awful lot of space, usable space, retail space, but off-the-shop-floor space is just as important for all the returns, paperwork, all that kind of stuff that really you just want to do elsewhere.
RDLH: Actually, that first Christmas when we were still doing massively online, we didn’t have the new space renovated. And so the event space in the barn, which trust me in winter is properly baltic, and we couldn't really afford to heat it during the day. So the poor guys, there were three of them doing the picking and packing and all wearing basically ski kit! It was absolutely freezing cold. It was not good. So we're never going back there.
JR: Obviously, COVID and all those lockdowns were a massive low point for so many people. But I want to talk about some of your high points. Only two years after opening the deli, you were awarded Deli of the Year. In 2015 you received some of the James Patterson grant money to renovate that beautiful book van. In 2018, you were Britain's Best Shop. And then you had that whole 10-year anniversary campaign. And you're still going! Even in January this year you were listed as one of seven of the best browsable bookshops in the UK. You're still pushing and it's still happening. There's so much we could talk about, but I was curious if you could share some of your highlights over that time.
RDLH: You've probably you've named quite a few of them. Most of mine, I mean, the 10th birthday was really good fun, and we had the most beautiful day. It was really special.
Actually, one of the most special things about it was the number of former staff who came back. And actually, every year, particularly last year, because we do a Christmas shopping night every year, and I would say 2023 was probably our biggest and the highest number of former staff that came back. And it's not something I would ever really have thought about, but it was so lovely, it was like a reunion and everyone was just so happy to see each other, as well as millions of customers, and the customers are really happy to see the old staff. So that was really nice too. So there's that, that those sort of evenings where you don't necessarily expect that to happen was, they're really special. But often it's, it's all through events.
So I was talking last night to Lucy Dukes, as I said, and found myself talking about Invisible Child. It's a spectacular book by an American writer called Andrea Elliott, it won a Pulitzer. I read it because Najma Finlay had sent it to me, I think in January, a couple of years ago. It looks incredibly academic, 600 pages long. And you just think, ‘Oh, that's a bit serious’. It's about growing up in poverty in Brooklyn, charting a family over about eight years in and out of shelters, and all sorts of drama. And I had COVID quite mildly in April that year, and so I couldn't go to work, because it was at the time when you still couldn't go to work. But I wasn't ill enough to be flat on my back in bed, I was sort of lying on the sofa, you know, and thinking ‘I can read in the day? I'm allowed to? This is great!’ And I just didn't move for three days and read the whole book. And if I did have to move, I took it with me. It just was breathtaking. and I wasn't expecting it. So the whole story of that book, in terms of my bookseller experience of it just knocked me off my feet.
And then, just to give you a quick summary, so normally our book group over the summer holidays, we don't meet in July because everyone's away, we meet in August and we talk about our favourite summer read in order to to sell our ‘Summer Read’. And so, two years ago, I said, ‘Look, I'm going to cheat, we should still do that, but there's a book that I'm just going to put under your noses and say if you're tempted, it looks terrifying, it looks really academic, do not be put off. This blew my mind!’ So I did a little rant about it. I didn't really think anyone would take me up on it because it's not an obvious summer read. Trust me, take a look at it, you would think the same. At the meeting in August, rather than having 10 or 12, we had 22 people, and everyone did talk about the books they wanted to talk about, but very quickly for a change. And all they wanted to talk about was Invisible Child.
So immediately after I'd read it, going back to April or whatever it was, I'd emailed Najma and said, ‘I'm so sorry not to have gotten back earlier’ - she wouldn't have been bothered because, you know, we're all so overwhelmed - and, ‘if there's any chance we could do that with her, please, please, please!’ And she's like, ‘Absolutely, in May?’ I was like, ‘I can't get the audience for May, any other time but that's just too soon.’ This is a writer that, obviously she's brilliant, obviously the book's brilliant, but it's a total hand-sell and you will not get more than 10 people if we did it in May.
So she said, ‘Fine, I'll have a think about it.’ And then moments later she came back and said, ‘Well, she's doing a thing in Amsterdam in October.’ So she brought her over, especially from Amsterdam, and that in itself was pretty mind-blowing, I think we had about 80 people and the atmosphere in the room was breathtaking. People were practically in tears, also laughing. She just was wonderful. She really was. So that's one of my absolute highlights that I think will stay with me forever. It's usually a really spectacular event that perhaps comes from left field and surprises. So yeah, she would be up there. The other ones that spring to mind are Cheryl Strayed and Richard Holloway. There are so many. I mean, there really are, Tara Westover was incredible.
The hardest thing for us, I think, and I'm sure that's true for a lot, is what also in our case, because we have such a big team. It was actually managing the ebbs and flows where they kept locking up, opening up, locking up, opening up. And people's emotional reaction to that was much stronger than I'd expected. So managing all of that and making people feel safe and comfortable and also once we knew that we weren't going to be sunk by that, that was really hard.
It was interesting to learn a lot about online selling. And in a way, that was quite exhilarating. And we had so many lovely reactions, the kind of care packs we sent out and just really gorgeous emails and phone calls. And the phone rang off the hook the first few weeks because people just wanted someone to talk to. And they were ringing out just seeing if we could get them books. And then it became a long chat. So every phone call was a long one, which actually, sometimes it was tricky because we had a lot of other juggling balls going on.
But on the other hand, it was so flattering that people wanted to speak to us. And the same was true when you delivered the books and you'd have a chat over a fence or across the road or whatever. And so that was kind of amazing, it was quite mentally exhausting but that was true for everyone.
But I would say that the transition back to being fully open and operating in the normal way, that long, long, long tale was the toughest bit for us. And the online thing, it jump-started us. We got a grant, which meant that we then tried a new website, which took much longer than it should have done. It was lucky it was a grant because we wouldn't have done it otherwise. Anyway, as it transpired it was the wrong format for us, really. It was a sledgehammer to crack a nut. And so we finally moved away from that last year, thank the Lord, and did a new website for significantly less cash and about a six-week turnaround - we had a really wonderful designer who just made everything easy. So we're in a good place on that now that it's taken a while to get there. And I think on the kind of online selling thing, I know a lot of bookshops have maintained that and really developed it. I'd say we're ticking along and we're doing, you know, the book subscriptions are going really well, pre-orders are building, and our gift boxes remain steady, particularly obviously around sort of gifting season. And the nice thing about them is that they go down really well, so it's very satisfying from that point of view. And actually, the second big lockdown allowed us to renovate a space - you probably won't have seen it because it's sort of a hidden space upstairs - which was kind of disused and derelict, so we managed to make that usable. So that's office space and a packing floor, which is fantastic. So we're really lucky to have that and it's good to have done it for the building.
JR: Yeah, because you do have an awful lot of space, usable space, retail space, but off-the-shop-floor space is just as important for all the returns, paperwork, all that kind of stuff that really you just want to do elsewhere.
RDLH: Actually, that first Christmas when we were still doing massively online, we didn’t have the new space renovated. And so the event space in the barn, which trust me in winter is properly baltic, and we couldn't really afford to heat it during the day. So the poor guys, there were three of them doing the picking and packing and all wearing basically ski kit! It was absolutely freezing cold. It was not good. So we're never going back there.
JR: Obviously, COVID and all those lockdowns were a massive low point for so many people. But I want to talk about some of your high points. Only two years after opening the deli, you were awarded Deli of the Year. In 2015 you received some of the James Patterson grant money to renovate that beautiful book van. In 2018, you were Britain's Best Shop. And then you had that whole 10-year anniversary campaign. And you're still going! Even in January this year you were listed as one of seven of the best browsable bookshops in the UK. You're still pushing and it's still happening. There's so much we could talk about, but I was curious if you could share some of your highlights over that time.
RDLH: You've probably you've named quite a few of them. Most of mine, I mean, the 10th birthday was really good fun, and we had the most beautiful day. It was really special.
Actually, one of the most special things about it was the number of former staff who came back. And actually, every year, particularly last year, because we do a Christmas shopping night every year, and I would say 2023 was probably our biggest and the highest number of former staff that came back. And it's not something I would ever really have thought about, but it was so lovely, it was like a reunion and everyone was just so happy to see each other, as well as millions of customers, and the customers are really happy to see the old staff. So that was really nice too. So there's that, that those sort of evenings where you don't necessarily expect that to happen was, they're really special. But often it's, it's all through events.
So I was talking last night to Lucy Dukes, as I said, and found myself talking about Invisible Child. It's a spectacular book by an American writer called Andrea Elliott, it won a Pulitzer. I read it because Najma Finlay had sent it to me, I think in January, a couple of years ago. It looks incredibly academic, 600 pages long. And you just think, ‘Oh, that's a bit serious’. It's about growing up in poverty in Brooklyn, charting a family over about eight years in and out of shelters, and all sorts of drama. And I had COVID quite mildly in April that year, and so I couldn't go to work, because it was at the time when you still couldn't go to work. But I wasn't ill enough to be flat on my back in bed, I was sort of lying on the sofa, you know, and thinking ‘I can read in the day? I'm allowed to? This is great!’ And I just didn't move for three days and read the whole book. And if I did have to move, I took it with me. It just was breathtaking. and I wasn't expecting it. So the whole story of that book, in terms of my bookseller experience of it just knocked me off my feet.
And then, just to give you a quick summary, so normally our book group over the summer holidays, we don't meet in July because everyone's away, we meet in August and we talk about our favourite summer read in order to to sell our ‘Summer Read’. And so, two years ago, I said, ‘Look, I'm going to cheat, we should still do that, but there's a book that I'm just going to put under your noses and say if you're tempted, it looks terrifying, it looks really academic, do not be put off. This blew my mind!’ So I did a little rant about it. I didn't really think anyone would take me up on it because it's not an obvious summer read. Trust me, take a look at it, you would think the same. At the meeting in August, rather than having 10 or 12, we had 22 people, and everyone did talk about the books they wanted to talk about, but very quickly for a change. And all they wanted to talk about was Invisible Child.
So immediately after I'd read it, going back to April or whatever it was, I'd emailed Najma and said, ‘I'm so sorry not to have gotten back earlier’ - she wouldn't have been bothered because, you know, we're all so overwhelmed - and, ‘if there's any chance we could do that with her, please, please, please!’ And she's like, ‘Absolutely, in May?’ I was like, ‘I can't get the audience for May, any other time but that's just too soon.’ This is a writer that, obviously she's brilliant, obviously the book's brilliant, but it's a total hand-sell and you will not get more than 10 people if we did it in May.
So she said, ‘Fine, I'll have a think about it.’ And then moments later she came back and said, ‘Well, she's doing a thing in Amsterdam in October.’ So she brought her over, especially from Amsterdam, and that in itself was pretty mind-blowing, I think we had about 80 people and the atmosphere in the room was breathtaking. People were practically in tears, also laughing. She just was wonderful. She really was. So that's one of my absolute highlights that I think will stay with me forever. It's usually a really spectacular event that perhaps comes from left field and surprises. So yeah, she would be up there. The other ones that spring to mind are Cheryl Strayed and Richard Holloway. There are so many. I mean, there really are, Tara Westover was incredible.
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JR: Yeah, Tara was amazing, I remember that. But you've some of the literary elite, you’ve had Margaret Atwood, Michael Morpurgo, Sebastian Barry. I mean…
RDLH: They’re all legends. JR: it's an impressive list. RDLH: Well, we've been very lucky. With our 10th birthday, Philippa had this idea of creating a Mainstreet Makar, playing on the whole Scottish Makar thing. And so Michael was the children's one and Maggie [O'Farrell] was the grown-ups one. They both did an event and just were our figureheads for the year. And it was just so lovely. Michael, I mean, he, honestly, he did our first big event right at the very, very, very beginning. And at the time I wasn't terribly well. It was 650 people. We did it in collaboration with the Borders Book Festival because I couldn't have managed on my own at the time. And I knew his publicist, so that's definitely one that helped from previous days because she'd been a journalist for The Young Telegraph back in the day when I'd been pestering every children's journalist in town. So that was the beginning of a really special relationship. He definitely is our patron saint. There's no question. |
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JR: Yeah, absolutely. It's amazing when you can get that kind of author support, but also an author who's not scared to champion bookshops and independent bookshops. It can't hurt business either.
RDLH: Absolutely. It's surprising though. It's not always the ones that you expect where the sales are very good. I have learned a few things over the years. We did an event years ago with Val McDermid, who, initially, I don't know about you, I was pretty scared of. But luckily I sat next to her at a publishing dinner thing and by the time she’d had a few whiskeys we got on like a house on fire. But she did a brilliant, brilliant event. And I’d deliberately not done ‘book and ticket’ because I didn't want to unless they made me. The ticket sales flew, we had 240 in the village hall, but our book sales were derisory. And I'm afraid it's because the minute we go over 150, we get our non-regulars and so they're only coming for her. They don't really know who we are, they're coming because they love Val, which is fine, but they all buy the book online. Or they buy the book or they borrow it, which is fair enough, but our sales for that were terrible.
So it was a big learning point. For events on that scale, you have to be a bit more pragmatic. And so I've never done that again. She was great about it. I thought she'd be annoyed but she was completely cool about it. And very, very unbothered, which I thought was incredibly gracious of her.
JR: Yeah, you know, every author wants book sales, but I think getting over 200 people in a room is just amazing anyway. It's not easy to get that kind of crowd.
RDLH: No, you're right. But I genuinely can't think of an author we've had that I haven't liked. That's not an accident though, because I do ask the reps quite a lot about what they’re like. If I don't know their reputation, I will do some investigating. And if they're a tricky customer, I will generally not have them. And I'll find a way of tactfully not having them because you put so much into events, I'm not gonna do it with somebody who's not gonna be enjoyable to spend time with. I'm just not, because we don't need to.
JR: Yeah, absolutely. And you need to surround yourself with good people. Obviously, you do that with your team, but for all the people that you collaborate with, it's important.
RDLH: Absolutely, 100%.
JR: Roz, I was wondering if you could give us an idea of maybe two or three of your current bestsellers and maybe if there are any super recent favourites of yours or maybe some of your staff that you could shout about.
RDLH: Cool. Okay, so from my point of view, I did my book choosing on Monday, so I’m trying to think of the most common ones there. I've been found to read a bit more nonfiction, which is unusual for me because I just feel like I was a bit behind the curve on some things there. I do a lot of listening, too, so I recently listened to Thunderclap by Laura Cummings, which was spectacular. The only thing annoying about listening to that was we were listening in the car, Bill and I, we both did art history at uni, and he's like, ‘This is really stupid, we should be looking at the pictures!’
JR Ha! Yeah. With that one, definitely.
RDLH: And the paperback, I'm so impressed that they kept it to the £12.99. And it's just a beautifully produced colour illustrator. I don't know how they did that. So that is stunning. And what's nice is I love that kind of book where it's a bit surprising and it's not as obvious when she's not well known, particularly to your average customer. She's obviously very well respected in the book world and the art world, but she's not mainstream, I think it's fair to say. So that's very enjoyable. In Memoriam [Alice Winn], I mean, just mind-blowing. That's been huge. Oh, Brother by John Niven. Legend. Absolute legend. You have to be a bit careful who you give that to because it's very sweary. The same is true, I read Frankie Boyle's Meantime last year. Absolutely hilarious but you really have to be careful who you give that to me. That was amazing.
At the moment, actually, my head is completely in a relatively modern classic, which I hadn't read, Cutting for Stone [Abraham Verghese]. I haven't read it before, and we read it for Book Group. I'm still finishing it because I've been a bit manic recently. It is just breathtaking. I mean, astonishing. But that, for me, it's making me think of A Fine Balance [Rohinton Mistry], which I've always sold and sold and sold, just because it's so special. I would never risk putting that in a book subscription though, because there's a good chance they'll have read it, which is sad. I mean, I can hand sell it in the shop, but I can't really impose it on someone. And the same is a bit true of Cutting for Stone. Let me think. Vicky's just read it, and she wrote it last year, but it's just out in paperback, Lady MacBethad [Isabelle Schuler]. She loved that. She reads a lot of historical fiction and she championed The Secret Diaries of Charles Ignatius Sancho [Paterson Joseph]. That was a funny event.
Because she was so obsessed about it she got all of us to read it which as you probably know normally you don't do that because we need to spread the knowledge. But she was so excited that we did and everyone loved it too and so we went on a campaign to get him for the paperback, because we missed the hardback, and he came up in the middle of winter. The publisher clearly wasn't thinking straight because he just came up from London for the night for us. So this poor guy arrived in Berwick in pitch dark thinking, ‘Where have they sent me?’ Got a taxi to St. Boswell's thinking, ‘Really, really, there are no lights here, where have they sent me?’ He arrived clearly quite stressed, and polite, but you could tell he was, his head was spinning a bit and he was not pleased. I knew he was a pro and I knew he'd be amazing, but he was beyond amazing on stage. And what was so funny was that he couldn't quite believe how full it was. We had 90 in the barn and packed out because Vicky had done such a brilliant job and afterwards he was absolutely high as kites and very amused. And he bumped into an old friend and it was just wonderful. He was really good fun.
I’m trying to think what Sarah's read. Oh, she just read recently, I'm gonna pronounce this wrong, Kairos, K-A-I-R-O-S, [Jenny Erpenbeck]. I've just started actually, it's beautifully written, really unusual writing style. She said it's very literary but very brilliant. East Germany, love affair and across the Berlin Wall time when it came down. So yeah, that's been one of her recent favourites.
JR: Brilliant, thank you. Ok, so, the last question is always a slightly trickier one. What are you looking forward to, or which books that are coming out soon are you most looking forward to?
RDLH: Miranda July All Fours. I've only just started it but I have a sense about that one that it could - it might not do it in the hardback - but I'm really excited about that one.
JR: Last thing, really, seeing as this is going out in time for Indie Bookshop Week, do you have any plans for IBW this year?
RDLH: Well, it's a tricky one. Because it starts during The Borders Book Festival, it's always a lovely busy weekend and full of book people, because we're like an outpost, we're only five miles away. So it's always a buzz, which is nice. It's not the busiest Saturday of the year, but it's one of the busiest ones, no question.
So we're doing the Big Book Club, so we're reading The Golden Mole, which I'm really pleased about because I think Katherine Rundell is just a legend. And it's just brilliant, isn't it? It's just amazing. It's brilliant, she's brilliant, everything about it, it’s just a treat. We will definitely get her at the shop. I couldn't make the dates work last year but we will sort that out. So we're doing that, and on one of the Saturdays, we always give away surprise books wrapped in brown paper with three-word clues. So that always goes down really really well. We always do a window. We do have authors popping in but we don't do events because of when it is, which is unfortunate. I mean otherwise, we definitely would embrace it more but you can always tell it's happening and we wear the t-shirts and we do all that kind of stuff and people dress up.
And over the years, you know, we’ve been very lucky to be in lots of Indie Bookshop Week features, which always gives us a nice boost.
JR: It sounds like it should be a brilliant week for you. Roz, I think that’s a really nice place to stop. Thank you so much again for your time, obviously, we could’ve gone on for another hour but I’ll let you get back to it. Good luck with everything you have coming up and have a wonderful Indie Bookshop Week!
RDLH: Absolutely. It's surprising though. It's not always the ones that you expect where the sales are very good. I have learned a few things over the years. We did an event years ago with Val McDermid, who, initially, I don't know about you, I was pretty scared of. But luckily I sat next to her at a publishing dinner thing and by the time she’d had a few whiskeys we got on like a house on fire. But she did a brilliant, brilliant event. And I’d deliberately not done ‘book and ticket’ because I didn't want to unless they made me. The ticket sales flew, we had 240 in the village hall, but our book sales were derisory. And I'm afraid it's because the minute we go over 150, we get our non-regulars and so they're only coming for her. They don't really know who we are, they're coming because they love Val, which is fine, but they all buy the book online. Or they buy the book or they borrow it, which is fair enough, but our sales for that were terrible.
So it was a big learning point. For events on that scale, you have to be a bit more pragmatic. And so I've never done that again. She was great about it. I thought she'd be annoyed but she was completely cool about it. And very, very unbothered, which I thought was incredibly gracious of her.
JR: Yeah, you know, every author wants book sales, but I think getting over 200 people in a room is just amazing anyway. It's not easy to get that kind of crowd.
RDLH: No, you're right. But I genuinely can't think of an author we've had that I haven't liked. That's not an accident though, because I do ask the reps quite a lot about what they’re like. If I don't know their reputation, I will do some investigating. And if they're a tricky customer, I will generally not have them. And I'll find a way of tactfully not having them because you put so much into events, I'm not gonna do it with somebody who's not gonna be enjoyable to spend time with. I'm just not, because we don't need to.
JR: Yeah, absolutely. And you need to surround yourself with good people. Obviously, you do that with your team, but for all the people that you collaborate with, it's important.
RDLH: Absolutely, 100%.
JR: Roz, I was wondering if you could give us an idea of maybe two or three of your current bestsellers and maybe if there are any super recent favourites of yours or maybe some of your staff that you could shout about.
RDLH: Cool. Okay, so from my point of view, I did my book choosing on Monday, so I’m trying to think of the most common ones there. I've been found to read a bit more nonfiction, which is unusual for me because I just feel like I was a bit behind the curve on some things there. I do a lot of listening, too, so I recently listened to Thunderclap by Laura Cummings, which was spectacular. The only thing annoying about listening to that was we were listening in the car, Bill and I, we both did art history at uni, and he's like, ‘This is really stupid, we should be looking at the pictures!’
JR Ha! Yeah. With that one, definitely.
RDLH: And the paperback, I'm so impressed that they kept it to the £12.99. And it's just a beautifully produced colour illustrator. I don't know how they did that. So that is stunning. And what's nice is I love that kind of book where it's a bit surprising and it's not as obvious when she's not well known, particularly to your average customer. She's obviously very well respected in the book world and the art world, but she's not mainstream, I think it's fair to say. So that's very enjoyable. In Memoriam [Alice Winn], I mean, just mind-blowing. That's been huge. Oh, Brother by John Niven. Legend. Absolute legend. You have to be a bit careful who you give that to because it's very sweary. The same is true, I read Frankie Boyle's Meantime last year. Absolutely hilarious but you really have to be careful who you give that to me. That was amazing.
At the moment, actually, my head is completely in a relatively modern classic, which I hadn't read, Cutting for Stone [Abraham Verghese]. I haven't read it before, and we read it for Book Group. I'm still finishing it because I've been a bit manic recently. It is just breathtaking. I mean, astonishing. But that, for me, it's making me think of A Fine Balance [Rohinton Mistry], which I've always sold and sold and sold, just because it's so special. I would never risk putting that in a book subscription though, because there's a good chance they'll have read it, which is sad. I mean, I can hand sell it in the shop, but I can't really impose it on someone. And the same is a bit true of Cutting for Stone. Let me think. Vicky's just read it, and she wrote it last year, but it's just out in paperback, Lady MacBethad [Isabelle Schuler]. She loved that. She reads a lot of historical fiction and she championed The Secret Diaries of Charles Ignatius Sancho [Paterson Joseph]. That was a funny event.
Because she was so obsessed about it she got all of us to read it which as you probably know normally you don't do that because we need to spread the knowledge. But she was so excited that we did and everyone loved it too and so we went on a campaign to get him for the paperback, because we missed the hardback, and he came up in the middle of winter. The publisher clearly wasn't thinking straight because he just came up from London for the night for us. So this poor guy arrived in Berwick in pitch dark thinking, ‘Where have they sent me?’ Got a taxi to St. Boswell's thinking, ‘Really, really, there are no lights here, where have they sent me?’ He arrived clearly quite stressed, and polite, but you could tell he was, his head was spinning a bit and he was not pleased. I knew he was a pro and I knew he'd be amazing, but he was beyond amazing on stage. And what was so funny was that he couldn't quite believe how full it was. We had 90 in the barn and packed out because Vicky had done such a brilliant job and afterwards he was absolutely high as kites and very amused. And he bumped into an old friend and it was just wonderful. He was really good fun.
I’m trying to think what Sarah's read. Oh, she just read recently, I'm gonna pronounce this wrong, Kairos, K-A-I-R-O-S, [Jenny Erpenbeck]. I've just started actually, it's beautifully written, really unusual writing style. She said it's very literary but very brilliant. East Germany, love affair and across the Berlin Wall time when it came down. So yeah, that's been one of her recent favourites.
JR: Brilliant, thank you. Ok, so, the last question is always a slightly trickier one. What are you looking forward to, or which books that are coming out soon are you most looking forward to?
RDLH: Miranda July All Fours. I've only just started it but I have a sense about that one that it could - it might not do it in the hardback - but I'm really excited about that one.
JR: Last thing, really, seeing as this is going out in time for Indie Bookshop Week, do you have any plans for IBW this year?
RDLH: Well, it's a tricky one. Because it starts during The Borders Book Festival, it's always a lovely busy weekend and full of book people, because we're like an outpost, we're only five miles away. So it's always a buzz, which is nice. It's not the busiest Saturday of the year, but it's one of the busiest ones, no question.
So we're doing the Big Book Club, so we're reading The Golden Mole, which I'm really pleased about because I think Katherine Rundell is just a legend. And it's just brilliant, isn't it? It's just amazing. It's brilliant, she's brilliant, everything about it, it’s just a treat. We will definitely get her at the shop. I couldn't make the dates work last year but we will sort that out. So we're doing that, and on one of the Saturdays, we always give away surprise books wrapped in brown paper with three-word clues. So that always goes down really really well. We always do a window. We do have authors popping in but we don't do events because of when it is, which is unfortunate. I mean otherwise, we definitely would embrace it more but you can always tell it's happening and we wear the t-shirts and we do all that kind of stuff and people dress up.
And over the years, you know, we’ve been very lucky to be in lots of Indie Bookshop Week features, which always gives us a nice boost.
JR: It sounds like it should be a brilliant week for you. Roz, I think that’s a really nice place to stop. Thank you so much again for your time, obviously, we could’ve gone on for another hour but I’ll let you get back to it. Good luck with everything you have coming up and have a wonderful Indie Bookshop Week!
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