DAVID TorransNO ALIBIS bookstore, BELFASTWe’re thrilled to present our latest Bookshop Spotlight interview, featuring David Torrans, owner of Belfast’s beloved No Alibis Bookshop. With over 25 years of experience in the world of independent bookselling, David opens up about the realities of running a small press, the challenges of maintaining a bookshop in today’s economic climate, and the rewards of supporting local authors like Bernie McGill, Wendy Erskine, Lucy Caldwell, and more.
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DT: How are you?
JR: Yeah, I’m good. Really good, thank you. I've just been celebrating doing this for one year now, which is kind of weird because I’ve been in bookselling for over 10 years.
DT: OK. So, you’re a young one!
JR: Yeah, yeah.
DT: I’m sorry, I didn’t mean that to sound patronising, honest to god! I’m just having a giggle. If it’s in the blood, it’s in the blood.
JR: Well, I’m talking to people who’ve been doing this for years. I call them lifers, you know, much like yourself - doing it for 20-plus years. And then I’m also talking to a lot of people who just started after the pandemic.
DT: Yeah, yeah.
JR: So it’s nice to talk to people at different stages of their careers.
DT: Yeah, I mean, I don’t want to sound holier-than-thou, but anyone who takes on the job of an independent bookseller knows it’s not just a job. It has to be a vocation. We all need to eat, we all need to earn money, we all need to make a profit. But really, you’re not doing this because you’re going to get rich.
JR: Yeah, exactly. There aren’t many booksellers I’ve spoken to over the last 10 years who’ve found they can just sit back and let people come to them. Everyone seems to be pushing forward, trying something new.
DT: And being flexible.
JR: Exactly. So, how’s your summer been? Has the shop been busy?
DT: It’s been steady enough. With any business, there are always local variables that either help or hinder things. Things like train station closures, for example. We had some of that this year, but we were fine. A little bit down on last year, though. We were looking at the figures yesterday—just a little down—but you don’t judge these things month by month. You judge them year to year or quarter to quarter. That’s how you have to do it. Some months you’re down, others you’re up. The trick is, if you know why you’re down, you can act on it to change things. If you’re down and you don’t know why, then you shouldn’t be doing it.
JR: So why do you think you were down this summer?
DT: I think it’s mainly transportation issues. People haven’t been coming because of ongoing works and the local train station has been closed for six months due to a whole major revamp. That’s likely the main reason. And that’s fine and that’s all about to be fixed, so hopefully, we’ll see an upturn leading up to Christmas.
And I’ll be as honest as I can be, but Waterstones in Northern Ireland have been expanding into shopping centres, and that’s definitely affected us. It pains me to talk about it, but it’s just part of the corporate side of bookselling. They do things differently, and we don’t have the resources or power to compete in the same way. Waterstones opening in various places around here has had an impact.
JR: And have you heard from other booksellers in the area? Are they feeling it the same way?
DT: I think they probably are, but one of our strengths is that we’ve been here for 27 years and we have a loyal support, and people know we’re here, and they make an effort to come to us. It’s hard, though. If you’re a family out shopping and there’s a Waterstones right at the entrance of the supermarket, it’s a convenience. And if that happens five or six times a month over a year, that affects us. But we try to look for other opportunities, generating income by being proactive with events, both inside and outside the shop, and that helps us make up for it.
JR: Yeah, I definitely want to talk about events in a bit, and I want to discuss your publishing arm as well. But let’s start with the shop. For those who haven’t been to No Alibis before, can you give us a little introduction about where you are and what you’re all about?
DT: Well, we’re on Botanic Avenue, which is referred to in general as the university area, or the Queen’s Quarter, because Queen’s University Belfast is just around the corner from us. It’s been there for almost 200 years. It’s a red-brick, Victorian-style university that attracts a lot of students and has a large academic cohort, and that’s all very positive for us. We’re also beside the Botanic Gardens, with lots of interesting architectural spaces around the city in this area, so we get a lot of tourists coming through as well. And we’re right next to a train line—when it operates! It’s a great street to be on. When we opened the shop in 1997, there were various options for locations, but even though my bookselling career was only seven years old at the time, I knew Botanic Avenue was the place to go to. It’s a broad, tree-lined street near the university, and it’s conducive to browsing. It has the demographic nearby who will come and supports us. It’s in a lovely part of Belfast, close to Botanic Gardens, the Lagan Valley Towpath, Queen’s University, the Ulster Museum, and the Palm House—all within a 5-10 minute walk. Though we pay for it in our rates, because of it!
JR: Yeah, I’m good. Really good, thank you. I've just been celebrating doing this for one year now, which is kind of weird because I’ve been in bookselling for over 10 years.
DT: OK. So, you’re a young one!
JR: Yeah, yeah.
DT: I’m sorry, I didn’t mean that to sound patronising, honest to god! I’m just having a giggle. If it’s in the blood, it’s in the blood.
JR: Well, I’m talking to people who’ve been doing this for years. I call them lifers, you know, much like yourself - doing it for 20-plus years. And then I’m also talking to a lot of people who just started after the pandemic.
DT: Yeah, yeah.
JR: So it’s nice to talk to people at different stages of their careers.
DT: Yeah, I mean, I don’t want to sound holier-than-thou, but anyone who takes on the job of an independent bookseller knows it’s not just a job. It has to be a vocation. We all need to eat, we all need to earn money, we all need to make a profit. But really, you’re not doing this because you’re going to get rich.
JR: Yeah, exactly. There aren’t many booksellers I’ve spoken to over the last 10 years who’ve found they can just sit back and let people come to them. Everyone seems to be pushing forward, trying something new.
DT: And being flexible.
JR: Exactly. So, how’s your summer been? Has the shop been busy?
DT: It’s been steady enough. With any business, there are always local variables that either help or hinder things. Things like train station closures, for example. We had some of that this year, but we were fine. A little bit down on last year, though. We were looking at the figures yesterday—just a little down—but you don’t judge these things month by month. You judge them year to year or quarter to quarter. That’s how you have to do it. Some months you’re down, others you’re up. The trick is, if you know why you’re down, you can act on it to change things. If you’re down and you don’t know why, then you shouldn’t be doing it.
JR: So why do you think you were down this summer?
DT: I think it’s mainly transportation issues. People haven’t been coming because of ongoing works and the local train station has been closed for six months due to a whole major revamp. That’s likely the main reason. And that’s fine and that’s all about to be fixed, so hopefully, we’ll see an upturn leading up to Christmas.
And I’ll be as honest as I can be, but Waterstones in Northern Ireland have been expanding into shopping centres, and that’s definitely affected us. It pains me to talk about it, but it’s just part of the corporate side of bookselling. They do things differently, and we don’t have the resources or power to compete in the same way. Waterstones opening in various places around here has had an impact.
JR: And have you heard from other booksellers in the area? Are they feeling it the same way?
DT: I think they probably are, but one of our strengths is that we’ve been here for 27 years and we have a loyal support, and people know we’re here, and they make an effort to come to us. It’s hard, though. If you’re a family out shopping and there’s a Waterstones right at the entrance of the supermarket, it’s a convenience. And if that happens five or six times a month over a year, that affects us. But we try to look for other opportunities, generating income by being proactive with events, both inside and outside the shop, and that helps us make up for it.
JR: Yeah, I definitely want to talk about events in a bit, and I want to discuss your publishing arm as well. But let’s start with the shop. For those who haven’t been to No Alibis before, can you give us a little introduction about where you are and what you’re all about?
DT: Well, we’re on Botanic Avenue, which is referred to in general as the university area, or the Queen’s Quarter, because Queen’s University Belfast is just around the corner from us. It’s been there for almost 200 years. It’s a red-brick, Victorian-style university that attracts a lot of students and has a large academic cohort, and that’s all very positive for us. We’re also beside the Botanic Gardens, with lots of interesting architectural spaces around the city in this area, so we get a lot of tourists coming through as well. And we’re right next to a train line—when it operates! It’s a great street to be on. When we opened the shop in 1997, there were various options for locations, but even though my bookselling career was only seven years old at the time, I knew Botanic Avenue was the place to go to. It’s a broad, tree-lined street near the university, and it’s conducive to browsing. It has the demographic nearby who will come and supports us. It’s in a lovely part of Belfast, close to Botanic Gardens, the Lagan Valley Towpath, Queen’s University, the Ulster Museum, and the Palm House—all within a 5-10 minute walk. Though we pay for it in our rates, because of it!
JR: Yeah, I bet. So, David, I know you’re the founder and manager. Can you tell us what that looks like from your perspective, and what your day-to-day role involves?
DT: Over the years, the main thing that’s changed is that it’s not just me anymore. It’s a team effort. My partner, Claudia, looks after a lot of the administrative side—a lot of the school orders, corporate stuff—things that might not seem glamorous but are absolutely vital. Then we’ve got a cohort of very very fine booksellers who I can leave to manage things on their own. My role is more of an oversight role now—you know, the sort of general management, costs, the day-to-day running, and all the boring administrative stuff. I help organise events and make decisions on whether to go ahead with certain opportunities. Over the years, we’ve learned to say no more often, though it’s always a balancing act because you don’t want to cut off potential future opportunities. I also focus on our Irish history, politics, and literature sections, as well as some crime and mystery fiction. But our younger booksellers, who are more in tune with contemporary cultural fiction and trends and things like that, often handle that side of things. I refer to them. I’m 60, so while I try to stay in tune with what’s happening culturally and politically, I’m honest enough to admit that my grounding is in a time that is slightly different. So, I defer to my colleagues in their 20s and 30s for certain things, as they have a different and often more detailed cultural awareness than I do. JR: And I know the size of the shop has changed over the years. Do you know how many books you have in stock? That’s usually a good indicator. |
DT: We’ve got about 22,000 individual titles in the shop.
JR: Okay, right, cool. I’m pretty terrible with square footage, so I usually gauge it by the number of books. It puts it in perspective.
DT: That’s the number of titles, not individual books. I remember when we had a stock check, after the set up and Martin kept looking at his reader, a bit befuddled and bemused, because he said we had as many different titles as a medium-sized Waterstones.
JR: Yeah, which is mad, because from the street front, it looks so small!
DT: Yeah, it stretches back a bit. The shop is about 750 square feet. It’s around 45-50 feet long and at its widest, about 20 feet, but it narrows to 12-15 feet in some spots. It’s not massive, but we can move things around when needed for events.
JR: Yeah, and I know you’ve long been described as a community bookshop and a hub for the creative arts. How does that look in real terms? How do you think of yourself as a community bookshop at heart?
DT: One amazing thing about this area is that it’s culturally quite diverse—probably one of the most diverse areas in Belfast. South Belfast has attracted people from all over the world, including a large refugee population. Even before that, there was already a significant Chinese and Indian community here, among others, and local schools reflect that diversity. We try to support the community, particularly through things like World Book Day. We often buy a couple of thousand World Book Day books and just give them to schools. And we don’t even require vouchers—just gift them. Don’t tell the Booksellers Association though! Our link with schools is important, but we also collaborate with community arts centres. For events, we often use spaces like the Crescent Arts Centre nearby, which runs musical, art, and literary classes. We work closely with them on events, including the Belfast Book Festival, where we act as their bookshop during the festival. We also work with the John Hewitt Society, which is based on the ideas of a left-leaning poet from the 1940s and 50s.
And of course, Queen’s University. They have been very, very supportive of us in an indirect fashion in any year. Students and staff, and things like that, which has formalised itself quite strongly over the last number of years. So we would organise events with various departments at Queen's University. We would have author launches, author events for academics, and then they would also let us use their space to host events. From a commercial perspective as well, we've brought events to Queen's and paid for the use of their spaces, which are great. It’s all a balance. It’s that community network within the small Belfast, within the small area. But we go beyond that as well. We’ve got links with other parts of arts organisations in and around Belfast, and even further afield. For example, the Seamus Heaney Home Place, which is based in a small town called Bellaghy in South Derry, where Seamus Heaney was born. They set up an arts center there, and we have close links with them through arts events and organising things.
JR: Mm-hmm. And in terms of events that you do in-store, I mean, you know, I can see you’ve got a bunch coming up. Not least, you’ve got Sam Thompson on the 10th in-store, and Lucy Sweeney Byrne coming in a week or so as well. I mean, Lucy's just been at my local Forum Books, so she worked with us for a little while. She kind of lives in the area, or has lived in the area quite recently. So it’s good to see that she’s over with you soon.
DT: She’s living in Belfast at the moment.
JR: Oh, she moved? Right, okay. She was living down the road from me around lockdown, and then I hadn’t seen her for ages. Then I saw she’s got this book out (Let’s Dance, Oct 24) and she’s on tour, which is amazing.
How do events work for you in-store? I mean, what kind of audiences do you get? And do you feel like these are mostly regulars and locals, or is it a bit of a mix?
DT: Well, it’s always a bit of a mix, but with in-store events, we try to keep that community spirit because it brings locals into the shop, and most people are interested in what we do. In terms of the events side of things, anything that happens in the shop, a lot of the displays are on wheels, so they can be pushed aside. We can comfortably get a mix between seated and standing, about 50 to 60 people in the shop. When we move those bookcases around. Now, some people may consider "comfortable" to be a bit of a loose definition, but yes, that's healthy. You know yourself—sometimes smaller audiences can be more fun and more receptive to authors. We had an event recently where 12 people turned up, but every single one of them was so engaged with the author. It felt like there were 30 or 40 people because of the feedback and the experience. Then there are times when we have events with 50 or 60 people, and it has its own buzz, but it may not have that intimacy. But, you know, I don’t care. As long as people turn up to see the authors, that’s what matters. And we’ve had very, very few events with low turnout.
JR: Which is good! It’s always tough, sometimes, to find the right audience for the right book. I guess with having external venues on your doorstep, you can move to a bigger space if needed - if you can get the crowd.
DT: Absolutely. We always set up an event page well in advance. When we see numbers getting above 70 or 80, that’s when I start calling around for bigger spaces. But, you know how it is—people sign up for free events, and then some drop off. So, we have a limit we’re confident with in the shop, but if we think something’s going to be much bigger, we won’t even consider the shop—we’ll just go elsewhere. We’ve got venues we can use that can take up to 500 people, even up to 1,000, which we’ve used before. So, we’ve got that flexibility.
JR: How are you finding it post-pandemic in terms of getting audiences back in? Is it getting back to some kind of normal?
DT: It’s definitely getting back to normal. I think the sense of personal vulnerability has diminished somewhat, which is encouraging people to come out. But if someone has sadly been affected by COVID and the pandemic, and they’re not able to come out, they’re not going to, no matter who we have on. That’s sad, it’s tragic, but we’ve noticed that post-pandemic, we held off on doing a lot of events for about a year, to be honest with you. Even as things started to ease, we were still very cautious about bringing people into the shop. We were just happy that the shop was open. But then we started encouraging people, and it seems to be working fine. Our average in-store audience is between 30 and 40, which is comfortable. We can put out 15 to 20 seats if we think people will need them, and the rest can stand. So it’s good. We’re positive enough that things are coming back, and we wouldn’t be doing it if we didn’t think so.
JR: Okay, right, cool. I’m pretty terrible with square footage, so I usually gauge it by the number of books. It puts it in perspective.
DT: That’s the number of titles, not individual books. I remember when we had a stock check, after the set up and Martin kept looking at his reader, a bit befuddled and bemused, because he said we had as many different titles as a medium-sized Waterstones.
JR: Yeah, which is mad, because from the street front, it looks so small!
DT: Yeah, it stretches back a bit. The shop is about 750 square feet. It’s around 45-50 feet long and at its widest, about 20 feet, but it narrows to 12-15 feet in some spots. It’s not massive, but we can move things around when needed for events.
JR: Yeah, and I know you’ve long been described as a community bookshop and a hub for the creative arts. How does that look in real terms? How do you think of yourself as a community bookshop at heart?
DT: One amazing thing about this area is that it’s culturally quite diverse—probably one of the most diverse areas in Belfast. South Belfast has attracted people from all over the world, including a large refugee population. Even before that, there was already a significant Chinese and Indian community here, among others, and local schools reflect that diversity. We try to support the community, particularly through things like World Book Day. We often buy a couple of thousand World Book Day books and just give them to schools. And we don’t even require vouchers—just gift them. Don’t tell the Booksellers Association though! Our link with schools is important, but we also collaborate with community arts centres. For events, we often use spaces like the Crescent Arts Centre nearby, which runs musical, art, and literary classes. We work closely with them on events, including the Belfast Book Festival, where we act as their bookshop during the festival. We also work with the John Hewitt Society, which is based on the ideas of a left-leaning poet from the 1940s and 50s.
And of course, Queen’s University. They have been very, very supportive of us in an indirect fashion in any year. Students and staff, and things like that, which has formalised itself quite strongly over the last number of years. So we would organise events with various departments at Queen's University. We would have author launches, author events for academics, and then they would also let us use their space to host events. From a commercial perspective as well, we've brought events to Queen's and paid for the use of their spaces, which are great. It’s all a balance. It’s that community network within the small Belfast, within the small area. But we go beyond that as well. We’ve got links with other parts of arts organisations in and around Belfast, and even further afield. For example, the Seamus Heaney Home Place, which is based in a small town called Bellaghy in South Derry, where Seamus Heaney was born. They set up an arts center there, and we have close links with them through arts events and organising things.
JR: Mm-hmm. And in terms of events that you do in-store, I mean, you know, I can see you’ve got a bunch coming up. Not least, you’ve got Sam Thompson on the 10th in-store, and Lucy Sweeney Byrne coming in a week or so as well. I mean, Lucy's just been at my local Forum Books, so she worked with us for a little while. She kind of lives in the area, or has lived in the area quite recently. So it’s good to see that she’s over with you soon.
DT: She’s living in Belfast at the moment.
JR: Oh, she moved? Right, okay. She was living down the road from me around lockdown, and then I hadn’t seen her for ages. Then I saw she’s got this book out (Let’s Dance, Oct 24) and she’s on tour, which is amazing.
How do events work for you in-store? I mean, what kind of audiences do you get? And do you feel like these are mostly regulars and locals, or is it a bit of a mix?
DT: Well, it’s always a bit of a mix, but with in-store events, we try to keep that community spirit because it brings locals into the shop, and most people are interested in what we do. In terms of the events side of things, anything that happens in the shop, a lot of the displays are on wheels, so they can be pushed aside. We can comfortably get a mix between seated and standing, about 50 to 60 people in the shop. When we move those bookcases around. Now, some people may consider "comfortable" to be a bit of a loose definition, but yes, that's healthy. You know yourself—sometimes smaller audiences can be more fun and more receptive to authors. We had an event recently where 12 people turned up, but every single one of them was so engaged with the author. It felt like there were 30 or 40 people because of the feedback and the experience. Then there are times when we have events with 50 or 60 people, and it has its own buzz, but it may not have that intimacy. But, you know, I don’t care. As long as people turn up to see the authors, that’s what matters. And we’ve had very, very few events with low turnout.
JR: Which is good! It’s always tough, sometimes, to find the right audience for the right book. I guess with having external venues on your doorstep, you can move to a bigger space if needed - if you can get the crowd.
DT: Absolutely. We always set up an event page well in advance. When we see numbers getting above 70 or 80, that’s when I start calling around for bigger spaces. But, you know how it is—people sign up for free events, and then some drop off. So, we have a limit we’re confident with in the shop, but if we think something’s going to be much bigger, we won’t even consider the shop—we’ll just go elsewhere. We’ve got venues we can use that can take up to 500 people, even up to 1,000, which we’ve used before. So, we’ve got that flexibility.
JR: How are you finding it post-pandemic in terms of getting audiences back in? Is it getting back to some kind of normal?
DT: It’s definitely getting back to normal. I think the sense of personal vulnerability has diminished somewhat, which is encouraging people to come out. But if someone has sadly been affected by COVID and the pandemic, and they’re not able to come out, they’re not going to, no matter who we have on. That’s sad, it’s tragic, but we’ve noticed that post-pandemic, we held off on doing a lot of events for about a year, to be honest with you. Even as things started to ease, we were still very cautious about bringing people into the shop. We were just happy that the shop was open. But then we started encouraging people, and it seems to be working fine. Our average in-store audience is between 30 and 40, which is comfortable. We can put out 15 to 20 seats if we think people will need them, and the rest can stand. So it’s good. We’re positive enough that things are coming back, and we wouldn’t be doing it if we didn’t think so.
JR: Yeah, well this is it, isn’t it? I guess for so many bookshops, events are just part of what we do—it’s a way of engaging with books, authors, and audiences. But you can’t always rely on them as income.
DT: Exactly. I’ve never thought of events as a commercial revenue stream, to be honest. There are some, obviously, where we have to. But the idea that every person who comes to an event is going to buy a book? No, no one does that. No one should think that way. Events are more of a way to market the shop and keep people engaged. If 30 or 40 people come to the shop and half of them buy a book, that’s great. But the other half now know you’re there, and maybe they’ll come back. That’s how you have to look at it. The downside, of course, is you still have to pay staff, keep the lights on, etc. But that’s just part of running a business. JR: Yeah, and I know you mentioned Waterstones expanding in Northern Ireland—they obviously do their fair share of events too. But, with so many other bookshops around, is everyone doing events, or are some shops not bothering? DT: I don’t think so, not to the same extent. We’re very fortunate—we’ve been here for almost 30 years. Because of that, we’ve built relationships through the sales reps, who are becoming fewer, I have to say, and through publishers. I’m not naive—I know that a publisher, no matter how loyal they are to us, would rather sell 1,500 copies to Waterstones than 50 to me. But by the same token, those smaller publishers who understand what we do, even some of the larger ones, know we put the effort in. And I have to admit, I can be quite aggressive in protecting my business. |
If I’m not, then what’s the point? So we make sure publishers know that when it comes to events, they shouldn’t always think of Waterstones first. Sometimes they don’t, and that’s fine—you just deal with it. But our reputation for being efficient, organised, and staffing events well has paid off.
JR: Yeah, and it’s your time spent on the high street, isn’t it? The experience and time you’ve put in, that publishers do recognise. They have to appreciate that, and if you say yes to a particular event, it’s likely to do well.
DT: Exactly. We have been here, I mean, 27 years, and I can't overestimate the importance of building a relationship with sales reps. I know that sales representatives have their commitment to their employer and they're always going to be looking at the bigger commercial entities. It's important that they do that; that's their job, you know? Their aim is to sell. But from a softer, smaller perspective, I think they also realise that maintaining a relationship with us. And they know that if we can do things properly. We have developed relationships with publishers where they've asked us to do a limited edition of a book. So, Michael McGee's Close to Home. We did a limited edition with Penguin for that. Kenny's also did part of it, but we took 350 copies. I think Kenny's took 350 copies. We sold our copies out in three weeks.
JR: Yeah, which is amazing. I mean, for any book, but especially when you've got that little bit of added pressure. But I guess it's sort of, for you guys, the icing on the cake when the publishers are coming to you with this sort of thing.
DT: Yeah, and we get asked, you know, would you consider doing a limited edition of this book? And in a sense, that's an honour. I mean, that's amazing to have that option to do that. We did one with Lucy Caldwell's new collection Opens. We did a hardback edition; there was no paperback edition. There was a hardback edition of 750 copies. She wrote an extra story for us, so there's an extra story in that collection, and they're signed and numbered. And we've sold more than half of them already.
JR: I love that! I love seeing, you know, because you do spot a few indies around the UK who have the pushing power to convert those into sales, really, isn’t it?
DT: In a limited way, yes. I'm not getting above myself here. I know where we can do it, and I know definitely where we cannot do it. Where there's an opportunity, if a publisher is prepared to take a chance with us and say, "Do you think you can do this?" I'll say, "Yes, I think we can," or "No, we can't. It's too much of a risk." And that's a nice position to be in. Now, having said that, it does put you under commercial pressure. Because if you take on a print run of 750 copies, there's a lot of money coming out of your account.
JR: Yeah, of course! And obviously, you'll have a pretty good track record over the years with certain publishers, but there's only so much of a limit you're going to be allowed, you know?
DT: Yes, exactly, exactly. But I mean, I will very rarely complain about a relationship with a publisher because there’s no point. If I'm not getting on with a publisher, I won't stock their books. And it's not because I don't like them or cherish what they do, but I'll find alternative ways of sourcing the books through wholesalers or something like that. That very rarely happens. The main reason for that is more commercial than any sort of personal relationship issue. But you know, people who complain about publishers really, I think, don't understand the nature of the business. You can't complain about publishers. Publishers are providing your stock; they're providing the authors and the reading material and the books that you require. You need to work out a relationship with your publishers or with wholesalers. It is to everyone's benefit; you just deal with it accordingly.
JR: Yeah, absolutely. I guess that kind of leads me into my next question, really, which is about the kind of books that you stock and how that's changed over the years. Because I know you were originally very much a crime specialist. I think I read somewhere when you opened, about 70% of the shop was crime fiction. Was that right?
DT: Yeah, that's definitely not the case anymore.
JR: So how has your stock changed? Do you think that's just reading the demographic and the people who are coming to you these days?
DT: Initially, when I opened the shop in '97, I knew that crime fiction has always been a love of mine—you know, good mysteries, good social commentary, good stylistic genre fiction. Not really, I'm going to sound slightly elitist here, but not really the potboiler type crime novel. I've never really felt that akin to that or enjoyed that. But, you know, the good literary observational type of crime fiction, you know, the George Pelecanos' or the Sara Paretsky's—those things with a social message. So when we opened the shop, I thought there's no way we're going to survive if we don't have a specialist type of bookshop in Belfast. Don't forget, we were one of the first new— in fact, I think we were the first new specialist independent bookshop to open up in Belfast, ever. And people thought I was mad.
I can remember having a meeting with... because we had written up a new business plan, and Belfast City Council was running a mentoring program for new business owners—a variety of businesses. In this mentoring program, you go with, you know, business-type guru people who would tell you, you know, give you tips and things like that. I can remember going through this process; it was over six months. One of the organisers, not to me personally, but to someone else within the group, said that my business wouldn't last. I was mad. I found this out afterward and took great pleasure in telling him that it did last. It was actually on our 20th anniversary when we organised a crime fiction festival, and he had come along to it. And I very delicately reminded him of what he said. He was profoundly embarrassed and profoundly grateful that we had survived.
At that time in '97, there’s no point in an independent bookshop if it isn’t specialised and it brings people in because there's that niche interest. But very quickly, don't forget 30% of the shop was other fiction. So there was an awareness there that, you know, literature, kids' books, Irish fiction, history, politics; it was a small shop. The shop was half the size it is now. But very quickly, it became apparent, especially the relationship with Queens; you know, lecturers would get in touch and ask us would we be good enough to supply textbooks for them for their classes, even though there was an established university bookshop. And whilst I didn't actively go after that business—because that was my former employer—I used to work in that bookshop. I'm not going to be stupid enough to say no, I won't take your business. So, you know, if someone says, "I would like you to bring in books for my class, because I know you can get them in quickly, and I know that you can source them from different places, i.e. American," things like that, I would say yes. Which bookshop wouldn't? Which business wouldn't? So that just enabled the sort of, I suppose, the organic growth of the shop in different ways. So then, you know, walls that were not separated, rooms that were being used for storage, were taken down. Bookshelves were put up, but we did it very carefully. You know, we tried to do it as carefully as we could. Just, you know, there's no quick way of killing the business than overstocking and then not being able to sell the stock. So we were just careful with how we did that. So it was the organic growth.
JR: Yeah, and it’s your time spent on the high street, isn’t it? The experience and time you’ve put in, that publishers do recognise. They have to appreciate that, and if you say yes to a particular event, it’s likely to do well.
DT: Exactly. We have been here, I mean, 27 years, and I can't overestimate the importance of building a relationship with sales reps. I know that sales representatives have their commitment to their employer and they're always going to be looking at the bigger commercial entities. It's important that they do that; that's their job, you know? Their aim is to sell. But from a softer, smaller perspective, I think they also realise that maintaining a relationship with us. And they know that if we can do things properly. We have developed relationships with publishers where they've asked us to do a limited edition of a book. So, Michael McGee's Close to Home. We did a limited edition with Penguin for that. Kenny's also did part of it, but we took 350 copies. I think Kenny's took 350 copies. We sold our copies out in three weeks.
JR: Yeah, which is amazing. I mean, for any book, but especially when you've got that little bit of added pressure. But I guess it's sort of, for you guys, the icing on the cake when the publishers are coming to you with this sort of thing.
DT: Yeah, and we get asked, you know, would you consider doing a limited edition of this book? And in a sense, that's an honour. I mean, that's amazing to have that option to do that. We did one with Lucy Caldwell's new collection Opens. We did a hardback edition; there was no paperback edition. There was a hardback edition of 750 copies. She wrote an extra story for us, so there's an extra story in that collection, and they're signed and numbered. And we've sold more than half of them already.
JR: I love that! I love seeing, you know, because you do spot a few indies around the UK who have the pushing power to convert those into sales, really, isn’t it?
DT: In a limited way, yes. I'm not getting above myself here. I know where we can do it, and I know definitely where we cannot do it. Where there's an opportunity, if a publisher is prepared to take a chance with us and say, "Do you think you can do this?" I'll say, "Yes, I think we can," or "No, we can't. It's too much of a risk." And that's a nice position to be in. Now, having said that, it does put you under commercial pressure. Because if you take on a print run of 750 copies, there's a lot of money coming out of your account.
JR: Yeah, of course! And obviously, you'll have a pretty good track record over the years with certain publishers, but there's only so much of a limit you're going to be allowed, you know?
DT: Yes, exactly, exactly. But I mean, I will very rarely complain about a relationship with a publisher because there’s no point. If I'm not getting on with a publisher, I won't stock their books. And it's not because I don't like them or cherish what they do, but I'll find alternative ways of sourcing the books through wholesalers or something like that. That very rarely happens. The main reason for that is more commercial than any sort of personal relationship issue. But you know, people who complain about publishers really, I think, don't understand the nature of the business. You can't complain about publishers. Publishers are providing your stock; they're providing the authors and the reading material and the books that you require. You need to work out a relationship with your publishers or with wholesalers. It is to everyone's benefit; you just deal with it accordingly.
JR: Yeah, absolutely. I guess that kind of leads me into my next question, really, which is about the kind of books that you stock and how that's changed over the years. Because I know you were originally very much a crime specialist. I think I read somewhere when you opened, about 70% of the shop was crime fiction. Was that right?
DT: Yeah, that's definitely not the case anymore.
JR: So how has your stock changed? Do you think that's just reading the demographic and the people who are coming to you these days?
DT: Initially, when I opened the shop in '97, I knew that crime fiction has always been a love of mine—you know, good mysteries, good social commentary, good stylistic genre fiction. Not really, I'm going to sound slightly elitist here, but not really the potboiler type crime novel. I've never really felt that akin to that or enjoyed that. But, you know, the good literary observational type of crime fiction, you know, the George Pelecanos' or the Sara Paretsky's—those things with a social message. So when we opened the shop, I thought there's no way we're going to survive if we don't have a specialist type of bookshop in Belfast. Don't forget, we were one of the first new— in fact, I think we were the first new specialist independent bookshop to open up in Belfast, ever. And people thought I was mad.
I can remember having a meeting with... because we had written up a new business plan, and Belfast City Council was running a mentoring program for new business owners—a variety of businesses. In this mentoring program, you go with, you know, business-type guru people who would tell you, you know, give you tips and things like that. I can remember going through this process; it was over six months. One of the organisers, not to me personally, but to someone else within the group, said that my business wouldn't last. I was mad. I found this out afterward and took great pleasure in telling him that it did last. It was actually on our 20th anniversary when we organised a crime fiction festival, and he had come along to it. And I very delicately reminded him of what he said. He was profoundly embarrassed and profoundly grateful that we had survived.
At that time in '97, there’s no point in an independent bookshop if it isn’t specialised and it brings people in because there's that niche interest. But very quickly, don't forget 30% of the shop was other fiction. So there was an awareness there that, you know, literature, kids' books, Irish fiction, history, politics; it was a small shop. The shop was half the size it is now. But very quickly, it became apparent, especially the relationship with Queens; you know, lecturers would get in touch and ask us would we be good enough to supply textbooks for them for their classes, even though there was an established university bookshop. And whilst I didn't actively go after that business—because that was my former employer—I used to work in that bookshop. I'm not going to be stupid enough to say no, I won't take your business. So, you know, if someone says, "I would like you to bring in books for my class, because I know you can get them in quickly, and I know that you can source them from different places, i.e. American," things like that, I would say yes. Which bookshop wouldn't? Which business wouldn't? So that just enabled the sort of, I suppose, the organic growth of the shop in different ways. So then, you know, walls that were not separated, rooms that were being used for storage, were taken down. Bookshelves were put up, but we did it very carefully. You know, we tried to do it as carefully as we could. Just, you know, there's no quick way of killing the business than overstocking and then not being able to sell the stock. So we were just careful with how we did that. So it was the organic growth.
JR: Yeah, which, I guess, is something that a lot of shops find over time, especially maybe if you're a bit more of a destination shop and a bit more of a tourist draw as well. You know, you end up finding you're selling a lot more local history, you know, a lot of the chart toppers, I suppose, if people are coming in for these big things. Do you feel like you're doing a lot of that, or do you let the Waterstones get on with that?
DT: The chart-topper thing is something that I wouldn't say we actively avoid, but we're very careful about what chart toppers we bring in. I mean, I am honestly not being snooty about this, but you know, we wouldn't touch a Jilly Cooper or a Jeffrey Archer book. JR: Sure, sure. DT: I mean, why would we? I mean, you pick them up in the supermarket. You know, the one profoundly sad thing about the whole development of that sort of area is that I remember when we first opened, we would have been one of the only shops in Belfast that would have stocked people like Val McDermid within the crime genre or people like Ian Rankin. Yeah. And when I say stocked, I mean all of their titles. No, it's unbearably difficult for us to stop getting those authors because they're so big. JR: Yeah. DT: But it doesn't stop Ian coming to the shop every year to sign stock for me or to organise events through us. Yeah, so you see that those authors remember that and they remain loyal. |
As much as they can given the whole commercial environment their writing is in as well. But no, we try and stay away from all of that. I mean, basically, and the reps, thankfully, know that. So if they see supermarket-style books, we'll, you know, they know that the chances are they'll bring in maybe one, but we'll not bring in 10 or 15.
Whereas, some new indie fiction, published by, you know, a Verso or a Pushkin Press or someone like that, or some Granta titles and things like that. That's what we'll do. I mean, the most important section in our shop, which has been a sort of a collective development, has been our staff picks section, and we're constantly debating whether or not to move them from two bays to three bays - and these are all face-out books, you’re limited with regards to how many you have, you know, but there's at least 50 books in that section. And when I say staff picks, I mean things as eclectic as a Raymond Queneau and a Vigdis Hjorth and people like that. Books that you’re probably not going to see in anyother bookshop!
JR: Yeah, which is really important. I mean, it's the books that you champion that can quite easily become your bestsellers, you know.
DT: Oh, well, we’re talking about these books over a year, over a yearly basis, for some quite obscure titles we’d sell maybe 50-60 copies.
JR: Yeah, which is amazing, and it's bringing that to a different audience.
DT: And they’re all small presses.
JR: Yeah, and I guess it's important that you're championing these small presses as well as certain titles. And it's getting great relationships with them as well and proving that you might not have the pushing power of Penguin or Hachette or whatever, but, you know, we can sell the hell out of it.
DT: Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's great. And also what is so profoundly important, and I hope you'd be happy to mention this—and you can mention it—is the support of local authors and poets. You know, we've been here 27 years. Some of these authors would have come in here maybe when they were kids.
It's quite funny, but the support from local authors and the support from people who are from this place, but maybe even live in England or further afield, is so amazing. And I'm not going to name them because I'll only embarrass myself by not naming them all, but I'll only cause upset. But you could have a look at Belfast-based authors and analysts, and I can assure you that a lot of them would be supportive of the shop when we come in here. New authors, unestablished authors, and things like that.
JR: Yeah, and I suppose that sort of takes me onto my next point really, which is about your No Alibis Press. I've read somewhere that you once said, “If you want to do something stupid, you set up a press.” But you were inspired by presses like Poison Pen in Arizona or Mysterious Press in New York. I mean, how did that come about, and can you tell us a little bit about what ‘uncompromising fiction’ means to you?
DT: Well, actually, less so those two presses because those two presses are specifically genre-related presses. When you're thinking of the press, per se, I think a closer—I mean, not that we're in any way as grand as these presses at the moment. But presses like Tramp Press in Dublin, a Bluemoose, you know, presses like that, you know, they would have been more of a sort of, I suppose, an intellectual or cultural point of reference than Poison Pen and Mysterious Press. I mean, I'm going to be truthfully honest with you in that the whole world of independent press at the moment is hugely challenging and difficult. So much so that we have a bit of a hiatus; we've stepped back a little bit from it. I haven't said we've stopped, but we're just being very, very careful because we need to ensure that the core business, which is the bookshop, survives before anything else. But with regards to the press, we just have to be very careful. I mean, and it all, you know what, it all just boils down to economics.
The cost of producing a book nowadays has just gone up massively because of paper prices and things like that. Everything associated with the press—if companies like Hachette are charging £25 for the new Ian Rankin book in hardback and they're doing that, while other presses are cutting back on their promotional material due to the rising costs, can you imagine what it's like for small presses that receive absolutely no funding whatsoever? I mean, we got funding for one project that we undertook. Everything else has been managed through revenue generated by the shop, or through distribution from places like Turnaround and Gill for sales to other bookshops. So it's precarious, to say the least. But I am so glad we did it, and I am still profoundly glad that we have do it. Our last publication was last year; it was actually a children's book that we commissioned because, quite strangely, about a book in a bookshop.
The reason for doing it was that a local artist had been commissioned to create some designs for tote bags for us. When these designs came through, we were just blown away by them. My colleague, who's in charge of our kids' section and has been selling books for over 20 years, came to me with an idea about a kid's book about a book that wanted to be loved in a bookshop. He explained the story to me. It wasn't a case of nepotism; it really was a case of, “I like this idea,” but we needed an illustrator. We went with Rebecca Elliott for the illustrations. It's proven to be amazing; we printed almost 2,000 copies, and we're nearly sold out.
JR: Yeah, which is amazing.
DT: In just over a year. Those books are on sale in the Tate, the British Library, and places like that. But the cost of producing it was frightening.
JR: I mean, colour illustration, the paper costs alone, obviously, but yeah, getting printed.
DT: And we did it with French flaps. We made sure every book that we have produced, with maybe the exception of one, has been with French flaps. Because, and some of those in hardback as well, we use TJ Printing in Cornwall. If you do it properly, there's a cost, and we're not prepared to sacrifice quality. So at the moment, we're just having to be quite careful. But probably our proudest moment was when our collection of short stories by Bernie McGill, This Train is For, won the Edge Hill Prize.
JR: I was just about to mention that, actually, because that was last year.
DT: In January, yeah.
JR: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's such an amazing thing for a small press. But it just goes to show the effort you put in and the commitment to that kind of writing as well. I mean, it looks amazing.
DT: Yeah, I mean, we published Joanna Walsh's Seed, which was probably the most avant-garde, experimental novel that we've ever done. But also, Declan Burke's The Lammisters is a mix of P.G. Wodehouse meets Raymond Chandler with a little bit of Jane Austen thrown in. You know, we also published Ian Sansom's collections of short stories, The Semper Stories, one and two. Our first publication, Disorder, by Gerard Brennan, was a crime novel, but a very literary, intellectual style crime novel set in Belfast. We also published a collection of short stories called Still Worlds Turning, featuring writers like Lucy Caldwell, and various other people involved, as well as new and young writers.
Whereas, some new indie fiction, published by, you know, a Verso or a Pushkin Press or someone like that, or some Granta titles and things like that. That's what we'll do. I mean, the most important section in our shop, which has been a sort of a collective development, has been our staff picks section, and we're constantly debating whether or not to move them from two bays to three bays - and these are all face-out books, you’re limited with regards to how many you have, you know, but there's at least 50 books in that section. And when I say staff picks, I mean things as eclectic as a Raymond Queneau and a Vigdis Hjorth and people like that. Books that you’re probably not going to see in anyother bookshop!
JR: Yeah, which is really important. I mean, it's the books that you champion that can quite easily become your bestsellers, you know.
DT: Oh, well, we’re talking about these books over a year, over a yearly basis, for some quite obscure titles we’d sell maybe 50-60 copies.
JR: Yeah, which is amazing, and it's bringing that to a different audience.
DT: And they’re all small presses.
JR: Yeah, and I guess it's important that you're championing these small presses as well as certain titles. And it's getting great relationships with them as well and proving that you might not have the pushing power of Penguin or Hachette or whatever, but, you know, we can sell the hell out of it.
DT: Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's great. And also what is so profoundly important, and I hope you'd be happy to mention this—and you can mention it—is the support of local authors and poets. You know, we've been here 27 years. Some of these authors would have come in here maybe when they were kids.
It's quite funny, but the support from local authors and the support from people who are from this place, but maybe even live in England or further afield, is so amazing. And I'm not going to name them because I'll only embarrass myself by not naming them all, but I'll only cause upset. But you could have a look at Belfast-based authors and analysts, and I can assure you that a lot of them would be supportive of the shop when we come in here. New authors, unestablished authors, and things like that.
JR: Yeah, and I suppose that sort of takes me onto my next point really, which is about your No Alibis Press. I've read somewhere that you once said, “If you want to do something stupid, you set up a press.” But you were inspired by presses like Poison Pen in Arizona or Mysterious Press in New York. I mean, how did that come about, and can you tell us a little bit about what ‘uncompromising fiction’ means to you?
DT: Well, actually, less so those two presses because those two presses are specifically genre-related presses. When you're thinking of the press, per se, I think a closer—I mean, not that we're in any way as grand as these presses at the moment. But presses like Tramp Press in Dublin, a Bluemoose, you know, presses like that, you know, they would have been more of a sort of, I suppose, an intellectual or cultural point of reference than Poison Pen and Mysterious Press. I mean, I'm going to be truthfully honest with you in that the whole world of independent press at the moment is hugely challenging and difficult. So much so that we have a bit of a hiatus; we've stepped back a little bit from it. I haven't said we've stopped, but we're just being very, very careful because we need to ensure that the core business, which is the bookshop, survives before anything else. But with regards to the press, we just have to be very careful. I mean, and it all, you know what, it all just boils down to economics.
The cost of producing a book nowadays has just gone up massively because of paper prices and things like that. Everything associated with the press—if companies like Hachette are charging £25 for the new Ian Rankin book in hardback and they're doing that, while other presses are cutting back on their promotional material due to the rising costs, can you imagine what it's like for small presses that receive absolutely no funding whatsoever? I mean, we got funding for one project that we undertook. Everything else has been managed through revenue generated by the shop, or through distribution from places like Turnaround and Gill for sales to other bookshops. So it's precarious, to say the least. But I am so glad we did it, and I am still profoundly glad that we have do it. Our last publication was last year; it was actually a children's book that we commissioned because, quite strangely, about a book in a bookshop.
The reason for doing it was that a local artist had been commissioned to create some designs for tote bags for us. When these designs came through, we were just blown away by them. My colleague, who's in charge of our kids' section and has been selling books for over 20 years, came to me with an idea about a kid's book about a book that wanted to be loved in a bookshop. He explained the story to me. It wasn't a case of nepotism; it really was a case of, “I like this idea,” but we needed an illustrator. We went with Rebecca Elliott for the illustrations. It's proven to be amazing; we printed almost 2,000 copies, and we're nearly sold out.
JR: Yeah, which is amazing.
DT: In just over a year. Those books are on sale in the Tate, the British Library, and places like that. But the cost of producing it was frightening.
JR: I mean, colour illustration, the paper costs alone, obviously, but yeah, getting printed.
DT: And we did it with French flaps. We made sure every book that we have produced, with maybe the exception of one, has been with French flaps. Because, and some of those in hardback as well, we use TJ Printing in Cornwall. If you do it properly, there's a cost, and we're not prepared to sacrifice quality. So at the moment, we're just having to be quite careful. But probably our proudest moment was when our collection of short stories by Bernie McGill, This Train is For, won the Edge Hill Prize.
JR: I was just about to mention that, actually, because that was last year.
DT: In January, yeah.
JR: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's such an amazing thing for a small press. But it just goes to show the effort you put in and the commitment to that kind of writing as well. I mean, it looks amazing.
DT: Yeah, I mean, we published Joanna Walsh's Seed, which was probably the most avant-garde, experimental novel that we've ever done. But also, Declan Burke's The Lammisters is a mix of P.G. Wodehouse meets Raymond Chandler with a little bit of Jane Austen thrown in. You know, we also published Ian Sansom's collections of short stories, The Semper Stories, one and two. Our first publication, Disorder, by Gerard Brennan, was a crime novel, but a very literary, intellectual style crime novel set in Belfast. We also published a collection of short stories called Still Worlds Turning, featuring writers like Lucy Caldwell, and various other people involved, as well as new and young writers.
JR: Yeah, yeah. I mean, Wendy Erskine has obviously gone on to do amazing things. What a collection! And are those still available in-store?
DT: They are still available, and Turnaround still has copies. They sell; they don’t sell in massive quantities, but they sell regularly. We have had to reprint Bernie's book that's in paperback. We've also had to reprint a collection of essays called Impermanence that we produced in conjunction with the cultural center in Paris. Both of those had to be reprinted. And this reflects how things have changed. We published almost 2,000 copies of this transfer in paperback and a limited edition of 300 hardbacks. When we went to reprint 750 paperbacks, it cost almost as much as the 2,000 paperbacks. JR: That's mad, isn’t it? DT: I mean, this is the reality. We did it, and we needed to do it. It's proven very successful. We’ll pay ourselves off; we’re not making any money. JR: Yeah, and I guess it's reading the room a bit, isn’t it? It’s assessing the landscape and seeing if things improve in the future. Hopefully, you can come back with a vengeance and provide us with more amazing books, but yeah, it’s tough. DT: Yeah, but if someone was to come to us and say, “We've got this, would you be prepared to look at it?” You would be a fool not to. By the same token, our ability to pay authors— we've always been very fair with paying authors. |
I’ve been in the game long enough to know that you’re not going to insult someone by offering a silly amount as an advance. We’ve always been very careful about what we can offer. I like to think that we can’t compete with the big players, but we can certainly compete with everyone else of similar size. But that’s the reality because authors need to eat. Everybody needs to eat. The idea that authors earn a lot of money is a fallacy; some do, but the vast majority don’t.
JR: And I guess you need to stick to your guns and be consistent as well. You can’t start changing the rules this far down the line. You need to ensure that everybody's getting paid equally, and if anything, it’s getting harder and harder to do that.
DT: Of course it is, of course. With regards to the press and things, we’re proud of what we’ve done. We love what we do. But at the moment, we’re having to sort of park things for a little while, just so that we can wait for a situation to arise where we can do it without crippling ourselves, I suppose that’s the best way.
JR: I know obviously recently, well, it was a few years back now—2021—you celebrated your 25th anniversary. What do you think is in store for the next stage of No Alibis? What’s coming up, what can we get excited about, and what should we be looking out for?
DT: Well… existence!
JR: Ha! Ok, sure!
DT: I’m pragmatic. I’m profoundly pragmatic about the future of the bookshop because a sure way to bringing one’s downfall is to have false dream. I just really want us to continue to succeed and to continue to do what we do. It is challenging and difficult; the associated costs of a business of this size—any business of this size—have to endure and manage. We quite often don’t have the resources or revenue or the flexibility to deal with these things, so we have to be very careful. But I’m hopeful that we’re fine. In three years, we’ll have been open for thirty years. That’s the target I want to achieve. I definitely want to look ahead with joy and hope. Who knows, on our thirtieth anniversary, we may do something special. If you can’t plan something special for your thirtieth anniversary, then you shouldn’t be doing it.
JR: I guess it’s maintaining that enthusiasm throughout, right?
DT: Yeah, I mean, like I said, it’s a team effort these days. We have a great team working with us, all of them I’m going to have to name-check them all, so there’s John, Alex, Andrew, Tara, there’s young Raya, and there’s Claudia, and myself. We also have a wonderful group of volunteers. They help out whenever we need things done at short notice or if we need someone to cover an event. I can call them, and they’ll volunteer. I pay them in books; they just want books. This is priceless. The thought of those people, who, if they’re able to, will come and help you out with just a phone call, gives you a warm feeling. When you think about it, if I’ve got people who are prepared to help with things like that, and I don’t even bloody-well pay them, I should be grateful.
It’s like that classic scene in High Fidelity when John Cusack turns to the two guys in the record shop and says, “These guys turned up three years ago; I don’t even pay them.” I don’t abuse my volunteers as much as he did, but it’s that sort of thing. You just have to be grateful.
JR: Yeah, and it just goes to show how important bookshops are to people’s lives and how much people are willing to give up to support them, doing anything they can to help them survive and thrive.
DT: COVID was an amazing revelation in some ways, despite all of its tragedy and the turmoil and chaos that ensued. I felt a little guilty because I set up a PayPal account for people to buy book tokens. I remember some people buying vouchers for a hundred pounds.
JR: Wow.
DT: It was just going straight into the account. Despite PayPal's exorbitant charges, it just went in, and we would get in touch with them. We’d thank them. We’d say if there was anything they needed, just let us know. They’d respond, “No, I’ll just leave it there for the moment; we’ll be fine. We’ll come back to you later.”
JR: It’s just to see you through to the next chapter, and hopefully--
DT: No pun intended!
JR: Exactly! —But I guess now it is about looking after what you love the most, and so many people have so much love for your shop in particular.
DT: Lots of independent bookshops have this love.
JR: Yeah.
DT: The great thing is that many independent bookshops have a relationship with their community and with the people who come to them, as well as those they have supported and who have supported them. I suppose that’s why this term “vocation” comes into play, despite the commercial realities of everything. If you didn’t love doing it, you wouldn’t do it. And sometimes it’s like any job - and there are times you wake up in the morning and think, “Do I have to go to work?” But if you didn’t think like that about your job, you’d be mad!
But yeah, booksellers are a great breed. That’s the whole point: booksellers, like those at Waterstones, are a great breed as well.
JR: Absolutely.
DT: All booksellers are a great breed. No matter where you work, booksellers do it because primarily they love books. The corporate entities aside and the machinations and the part they play aside, people who work in bookshops do it because they love books.
JR: And I guess you need to stick to your guns and be consistent as well. You can’t start changing the rules this far down the line. You need to ensure that everybody's getting paid equally, and if anything, it’s getting harder and harder to do that.
DT: Of course it is, of course. With regards to the press and things, we’re proud of what we’ve done. We love what we do. But at the moment, we’re having to sort of park things for a little while, just so that we can wait for a situation to arise where we can do it without crippling ourselves, I suppose that’s the best way.
JR: I know obviously recently, well, it was a few years back now—2021—you celebrated your 25th anniversary. What do you think is in store for the next stage of No Alibis? What’s coming up, what can we get excited about, and what should we be looking out for?
DT: Well… existence!
JR: Ha! Ok, sure!
DT: I’m pragmatic. I’m profoundly pragmatic about the future of the bookshop because a sure way to bringing one’s downfall is to have false dream. I just really want us to continue to succeed and to continue to do what we do. It is challenging and difficult; the associated costs of a business of this size—any business of this size—have to endure and manage. We quite often don’t have the resources or revenue or the flexibility to deal with these things, so we have to be very careful. But I’m hopeful that we’re fine. In three years, we’ll have been open for thirty years. That’s the target I want to achieve. I definitely want to look ahead with joy and hope. Who knows, on our thirtieth anniversary, we may do something special. If you can’t plan something special for your thirtieth anniversary, then you shouldn’t be doing it.
JR: I guess it’s maintaining that enthusiasm throughout, right?
DT: Yeah, I mean, like I said, it’s a team effort these days. We have a great team working with us, all of them I’m going to have to name-check them all, so there’s John, Alex, Andrew, Tara, there’s young Raya, and there’s Claudia, and myself. We also have a wonderful group of volunteers. They help out whenever we need things done at short notice or if we need someone to cover an event. I can call them, and they’ll volunteer. I pay them in books; they just want books. This is priceless. The thought of those people, who, if they’re able to, will come and help you out with just a phone call, gives you a warm feeling. When you think about it, if I’ve got people who are prepared to help with things like that, and I don’t even bloody-well pay them, I should be grateful.
It’s like that classic scene in High Fidelity when John Cusack turns to the two guys in the record shop and says, “These guys turned up three years ago; I don’t even pay them.” I don’t abuse my volunteers as much as he did, but it’s that sort of thing. You just have to be grateful.
JR: Yeah, and it just goes to show how important bookshops are to people’s lives and how much people are willing to give up to support them, doing anything they can to help them survive and thrive.
DT: COVID was an amazing revelation in some ways, despite all of its tragedy and the turmoil and chaos that ensued. I felt a little guilty because I set up a PayPal account for people to buy book tokens. I remember some people buying vouchers for a hundred pounds.
JR: Wow.
DT: It was just going straight into the account. Despite PayPal's exorbitant charges, it just went in, and we would get in touch with them. We’d thank them. We’d say if there was anything they needed, just let us know. They’d respond, “No, I’ll just leave it there for the moment; we’ll be fine. We’ll come back to you later.”
JR: It’s just to see you through to the next chapter, and hopefully--
DT: No pun intended!
JR: Exactly! —But I guess now it is about looking after what you love the most, and so many people have so much love for your shop in particular.
DT: Lots of independent bookshops have this love.
JR: Yeah.
DT: The great thing is that many independent bookshops have a relationship with their community and with the people who come to them, as well as those they have supported and who have supported them. I suppose that’s why this term “vocation” comes into play, despite the commercial realities of everything. If you didn’t love doing it, you wouldn’t do it. And sometimes it’s like any job - and there are times you wake up in the morning and think, “Do I have to go to work?” But if you didn’t think like that about your job, you’d be mad!
But yeah, booksellers are a great breed. That’s the whole point: booksellers, like those at Waterstones, are a great breed as well.
JR: Absolutely.
DT: All booksellers are a great breed. No matter where you work, booksellers do it because primarily they love books. The corporate entities aside and the machinations and the part they play aside, people who work in bookshops do it because they love books.
THANK YOU FOR JOINING US IN THIS BOOKSHOP SPOTLIGHT WITH DAVID TORRANS. WE ENCOURAGE YOU TO VISIT THE NO ALIBIS BOOKSHOP WEBSITE TO EXPLORE THEIR EXCITING SELECTION OF BOOKS AND DISCOVER WHAT THEY HAVE IN STORE FOR THE UPCOMING HOLIDAY SEASON.
WITH UNIQUE TITLES AND A COMMITMENT TO PROMOTING LOCAL AUTHORS, THERE’S SOMETHING FOR EVERY READER. |