Cheryl DuffieldThe Little Bookshop, Leeds & SkiptonSet in the heart of Leeds’ North-East suburb, Chapel Allerton, specialising in children’s books but with a carefully curated adult’s selection; The Little Bookshop hosts regular kid’s storytimes and author events, and has established an ever-growing family of passionate readers.
On Saturday morning, you’ll see people queuing outside the butchers, outside the cheesemongers, outside the greengrocers. And then there’s a toy shop and there’s gift shops and there’s a few clothes shops, lots of barbers and hairdressers and cafes... I think people come to us for that kind of independent shop experience. |
|
JR: It’s been great seeing what you’re up to and how busy you’ve been this past year, and with your newest shop launch in Skipton back in November. That must make you one of the newest indies to open in the north.
CD: Okay, yeah, that's great!
JR: Let's start by talking about the shop itself. You opened your first location back in October 2017, as one of Leeds' very few independent bookshops at that time.
For those who haven't been to either of your little bookshops before, I was wondering if you could give us maybe a little bit of an introduction to your shop, where we can find you and what you're all about.
CD: Okay, so yeah, as you said, just over six and a half years ago we opened the bookshop in Chapel Allerton and at the time there's just me, and I've got two business partners, and we started off just as a children's bookshop and a cafe. It was very well received. And, yeah, just we three mums. The reason we decided on children's books is, having young children at the time, we didn't have a lot of time to read proper grown-up books but we knew a lot about children's books. I used to read a lot but there was a period after having children [where] I didn't really read very much at all apart from children's books, so that was the kind of thought process and then we decided that Chapel Allerton would be a good location. It's an area that we knew, and we knew lots of mums and thought, ‘You know, actually, this is something that would work!’
There had previously been a bookshop in Chapel Allerton, a different kind of model, but I think people missed it when it went. So that's kind of where we started from. Lockdown changed lots of things for lots of people and gave people an opportunity really to reflect on their business and what they were doing and where it should go. Previously, not many people came in and ordered for adults, even though they could. Over Lockdown, people were ordering adult, grown-up books and we realised that we can't just rely on people knowing that they can order books. They have to see the books there to know that they can get them. So when we reopened, and there was a period where shops could be open but cafes couldn't, we reopened the shop without the cafe and started to introduce some books for grown-ups. We quickly realised that we didn't miss the cafe and all the time it took, and we actually had a lot more time to devote to books, to sending books to schools, giving them lists of books, and curating lists for them. And of course, we'd be reading more and I'd been reading more books for grown-ups, and so it gave us that opportunity to think, ‘maybe this is the direction we need to be going in.’ There are lots of cafes in Chapel Allerton but there aren't lots of bookshops.
JR: Yeah, absolutely. What's your split between kids and adults now?
CD: I would say something like maybe two-thirds children to one-third adults.
JR: Okay, so still very much a specialist in kids then.
CD: Exactly, yeah. That's how we see ourselves, specialising in children's books. I suppose our next challenge was getting that message out there because for a few years we've been the children's bookshop, you know, and we'd put adult books in the windows and a vinyl saying, ‘Books for everyone.’ And I'd hear people go by saying, ‘There's the children's bookshop.’ But we are getting there. We do have a lot of grown-ups come just for the growing-up books now.
JR: It's a tricky thing to attempt a rebrand, isn't it? You spend so long trying to forge this reputation for one thing to then have to pivot slightly. And so many people had to do that after Lockdown and reshape their focus to keep the lights on. But as somebody who's worked in a cafe, I know that it's a lot harder than it sounds!
CD: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So actually, there were a couple of other bookshops that also got rid of their cafes. We saw lots of independent booksellers on the Facebook group, and I think a couple had said that they were closing, or had closed theirs, and that kind of gave me a bit of confidence to do the same. And obviously, like you say, we could have gone the other way. I can imagine bookshops probably did open cafes. And it is a lovely idea. I think the bookshop just wasn't big enough, basically. Sure, if we had double the amount of space then it would be in a different matter.
JR: And it's not just space, it's juggling the staff, it's the training as well, isn't it? It's an entirely different job.
CD: It's the stock control of perishables, too. It's not reliable.
JR: Could you give us a bit of a lay of the land, an idea of the size of both shops? I assume they're both… little?
CD: Oh, okay. Um, so… I mean, people often do say, ‘Oh, I was expecting quite a small bookshop.’ But I think physically the size of the bookshop in Chapel Allerton is about, I don't know, five meters wide by maybe 12 meters long. So it's not that small. It's not a bad size. I'm just trying to think of the last end-of-year financials. I think retail value is probably somewhere between the late 20’s, maybe up to £30,000 retail value.
JR: So yeah, that's not tiny. That's a pretty significant amount of stock.
CD: So then yes, the Skipton bookshop is probably a similar size but it's over two floors. And we have a 50-50 distribution in Skipton. Downstairs are adult books, the grown-up books, and upstairs are the children's books.
JR: I was going to ask, because I know on the website it does make it sound like there is more of a 50-50 split or more of an adult leaning than Chapel Allerton. How have you found that shift and how have you found the expansion?
CD: I think it's a bit like having your second child, in that you don't remember how much hard work it is with your first child. And you're like, ‘Oh, wait a minute.’ I forgot it takes a hundred per cent of my time. Not just the setting up, but also the first few months before we had extra staff there, and of course we had the first child to look after. But there were a lot of easier things and I knew where to look and I knew what I needed to do in terms of, you know, the practicalities of setting up a shop. I already had the connections with suppliers so that obviously was a lot easier. We also had a bit of a race to open in time for Christmas, so I think we must have got the keys at the end of October. We spent a lot of time over the October half-term setting up. It was great, starting [in time for] Christmas, obviously, we didn't want to miss that trade.
But yes, there have been quieter times so far this year. I think I'd forgotten that when we first opened in Chapel Allerton, there was a lot of interest, but there are also a lot of people who don't know about you and it does take time to get established.
JR: Yeah, absolutely. And it's not just building up footfall, but it's regular customers, isn't it? It takes so long to build that relationship with people.
CD: Yeah. And because I've got the two shops, I can't be working in both of them. Whereas for the first shop, the three of us owners spent a lot of time working there. The other two now are doing other things so we had to have more staff and we've got more outgoings.
JR: How many staff have you got in each shop now?
CD: So, Keighley and I are across both shops, and then in Skipton, I've got Katie and Mariam who do some days at the weekend. And then in Chapel Allerton, I've got two Alisons. One of them does more of the event stuff and in the shop less, and the other one does a couple of days a week. I also have a couple of younger people who help out for a few hours on a Saturday, but we tend to just have one person in the shop at any one time.
JR: How are the roles split up then? I mean, is everybody managing stock or is that mostly your responsibility?
CD: We all do a certain amount. We use Gardners, the wholesaler, for quite a lot of replenishment, so everybody does that. Whoever's in the shop that day would do that. And then for rep visits that’s normally myself and Keighley and Alison. But I very much like to have everybody involved with whatever elements of the bookselling process they're interested in. I'm happy to give whoever wants to do things the training so that they can take things on. It also allows a different voice, you know, to be heard. And we've all read different books and to not have their input would be a wasted opportunity.
CD: Okay, yeah, that's great!
JR: Let's start by talking about the shop itself. You opened your first location back in October 2017, as one of Leeds' very few independent bookshops at that time.
For those who haven't been to either of your little bookshops before, I was wondering if you could give us maybe a little bit of an introduction to your shop, where we can find you and what you're all about.
CD: Okay, so yeah, as you said, just over six and a half years ago we opened the bookshop in Chapel Allerton and at the time there's just me, and I've got two business partners, and we started off just as a children's bookshop and a cafe. It was very well received. And, yeah, just we three mums. The reason we decided on children's books is, having young children at the time, we didn't have a lot of time to read proper grown-up books but we knew a lot about children's books. I used to read a lot but there was a period after having children [where] I didn't really read very much at all apart from children's books, so that was the kind of thought process and then we decided that Chapel Allerton would be a good location. It's an area that we knew, and we knew lots of mums and thought, ‘You know, actually, this is something that would work!’
There had previously been a bookshop in Chapel Allerton, a different kind of model, but I think people missed it when it went. So that's kind of where we started from. Lockdown changed lots of things for lots of people and gave people an opportunity really to reflect on their business and what they were doing and where it should go. Previously, not many people came in and ordered for adults, even though they could. Over Lockdown, people were ordering adult, grown-up books and we realised that we can't just rely on people knowing that they can order books. They have to see the books there to know that they can get them. So when we reopened, and there was a period where shops could be open but cafes couldn't, we reopened the shop without the cafe and started to introduce some books for grown-ups. We quickly realised that we didn't miss the cafe and all the time it took, and we actually had a lot more time to devote to books, to sending books to schools, giving them lists of books, and curating lists for them. And of course, we'd be reading more and I'd been reading more books for grown-ups, and so it gave us that opportunity to think, ‘maybe this is the direction we need to be going in.’ There are lots of cafes in Chapel Allerton but there aren't lots of bookshops.
JR: Yeah, absolutely. What's your split between kids and adults now?
CD: I would say something like maybe two-thirds children to one-third adults.
JR: Okay, so still very much a specialist in kids then.
CD: Exactly, yeah. That's how we see ourselves, specialising in children's books. I suppose our next challenge was getting that message out there because for a few years we've been the children's bookshop, you know, and we'd put adult books in the windows and a vinyl saying, ‘Books for everyone.’ And I'd hear people go by saying, ‘There's the children's bookshop.’ But we are getting there. We do have a lot of grown-ups come just for the growing-up books now.
JR: It's a tricky thing to attempt a rebrand, isn't it? You spend so long trying to forge this reputation for one thing to then have to pivot slightly. And so many people had to do that after Lockdown and reshape their focus to keep the lights on. But as somebody who's worked in a cafe, I know that it's a lot harder than it sounds!
CD: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So actually, there were a couple of other bookshops that also got rid of their cafes. We saw lots of independent booksellers on the Facebook group, and I think a couple had said that they were closing, or had closed theirs, and that kind of gave me a bit of confidence to do the same. And obviously, like you say, we could have gone the other way. I can imagine bookshops probably did open cafes. And it is a lovely idea. I think the bookshop just wasn't big enough, basically. Sure, if we had double the amount of space then it would be in a different matter.
JR: And it's not just space, it's juggling the staff, it's the training as well, isn't it? It's an entirely different job.
CD: It's the stock control of perishables, too. It's not reliable.
JR: Could you give us a bit of a lay of the land, an idea of the size of both shops? I assume they're both… little?
CD: Oh, okay. Um, so… I mean, people often do say, ‘Oh, I was expecting quite a small bookshop.’ But I think physically the size of the bookshop in Chapel Allerton is about, I don't know, five meters wide by maybe 12 meters long. So it's not that small. It's not a bad size. I'm just trying to think of the last end-of-year financials. I think retail value is probably somewhere between the late 20’s, maybe up to £30,000 retail value.
JR: So yeah, that's not tiny. That's a pretty significant amount of stock.
CD: So then yes, the Skipton bookshop is probably a similar size but it's over two floors. And we have a 50-50 distribution in Skipton. Downstairs are adult books, the grown-up books, and upstairs are the children's books.
JR: I was going to ask, because I know on the website it does make it sound like there is more of a 50-50 split or more of an adult leaning than Chapel Allerton. How have you found that shift and how have you found the expansion?
CD: I think it's a bit like having your second child, in that you don't remember how much hard work it is with your first child. And you're like, ‘Oh, wait a minute.’ I forgot it takes a hundred per cent of my time. Not just the setting up, but also the first few months before we had extra staff there, and of course we had the first child to look after. But there were a lot of easier things and I knew where to look and I knew what I needed to do in terms of, you know, the practicalities of setting up a shop. I already had the connections with suppliers so that obviously was a lot easier. We also had a bit of a race to open in time for Christmas, so I think we must have got the keys at the end of October. We spent a lot of time over the October half-term setting up. It was great, starting [in time for] Christmas, obviously, we didn't want to miss that trade.
But yes, there have been quieter times so far this year. I think I'd forgotten that when we first opened in Chapel Allerton, there was a lot of interest, but there are also a lot of people who don't know about you and it does take time to get established.
JR: Yeah, absolutely. And it's not just building up footfall, but it's regular customers, isn't it? It takes so long to build that relationship with people.
CD: Yeah. And because I've got the two shops, I can't be working in both of them. Whereas for the first shop, the three of us owners spent a lot of time working there. The other two now are doing other things so we had to have more staff and we've got more outgoings.
JR: How many staff have you got in each shop now?
CD: So, Keighley and I are across both shops, and then in Skipton, I've got Katie and Mariam who do some days at the weekend. And then in Chapel Allerton, I've got two Alisons. One of them does more of the event stuff and in the shop less, and the other one does a couple of days a week. I also have a couple of younger people who help out for a few hours on a Saturday, but we tend to just have one person in the shop at any one time.
JR: How are the roles split up then? I mean, is everybody managing stock or is that mostly your responsibility?
CD: We all do a certain amount. We use Gardners, the wholesaler, for quite a lot of replenishment, so everybody does that. Whoever's in the shop that day would do that. And then for rep visits that’s normally myself and Keighley and Alison. But I very much like to have everybody involved with whatever elements of the bookselling process they're interested in. I'm happy to give whoever wants to do things the training so that they can take things on. It also allows a different voice, you know, to be heard. And we've all read different books and to not have their input would be a wasted opportunity.
|
JR: Do you feel like you've started reading more adult fiction since you've expanded the selection?
CD: Yeah, loads, loads more! I've managed to get myself into three book clubs. I don't know how I'm doing that. So yeah, and two of them seem to be picking two books each time. JR: Wow! CD: And then I keep getting distracted by other books that I'm reading alongside. So yeah, I'm on a couple of books a week. JR: You've got a really good reputation for children's storytime events. I've seen such a brilliant range of kids' signings over the last year or so as well. Most recently, Dermot O'Leary. And last year, Jacqueline Wilson, as well, which is amazing. CD: I know, I know, it's been great. JR: Was that always the goal, to become a specialist and have that focus right from the beginning? CD: Yeah, I think so. The more we've gone down that line, the more things that we've seen are possible. But yeah, events are brilliant. They can be tricky, particularly since Lockdown, getting people to come out, but when you've got great names, obviously, that helps. But yeah, it has been lots of fun having all those. It's not just events in the shop, we also take them out to schools. |
|
JR: Yeah, I was going to ask about that. I know the school thing can be quite a lot of work but it can be some of the most rewarding as well. How does that work for you?
CD: Absolutely. So when Dermot came, we had him the whole day and we took him to two school events and then a signing at the shop. I mean, he really did work hard. I think it's great because when you take an author to a school, particularly a primary school, they don't necessarily know who these people are. So Dermot, or another author who’s maybe not necessarily a household name, they just enjoy it and they think it's great. Then afterwards, the school will say that the kids are really inspired, and they're bringing in the stories that they've written since or the drawings or the illustrations they've been doing since then. It makes a positive, instant difference to the children. And I think it's really good when schools recognise that and actively seek out authors to bring into schools.
JR: Have you got a core list of local schools or are you trying to reach slightly further out as well?
CD: Yeah, we’re always trying to reach out to more schools, but we do have maybe a dozen, a few more schools around Leeds who we work with regularly. Either they buy books from us, we offer a great discount for schools, or we have authors in. We also have teacher's evenings once a term in the shop. We have guest speakers come in and talk about different things about reading and enjoying reading. And we say to schools, these are the sorts of things we've done before but if you've got an idea, something different, [we] will try and do it.
Yesterday I was in a school just outside Skipton, it's the school's aspiration week, sort of a career week, and we talked to them about owning a bookshop. We've done book fairs, all sorts of things. We've got a great idea coming up for the next World Book Day, where we’re doing a great big schools quiz and bringing everyone together to one venue. We'll have a particular reading list that we send back to schools. So yes, we’re always thinking about different ways of engaging with schools in order to give opportunities for the children to enjoy reading, and have the opportunity to read authors or different books that might not be on their radar. If they only ever hear about David Walliam's book, for instance, you know.
JR: It must feel really rewarding when you’re able to expand those horizons, and then they might come into the shop and say, ‘That's my new favourite author!’
CD: Yeah, exactly. They come in and they're like, ‘What's the next one in the series?’
JR: Yeah, that's amazing. I love that. So, if you're already looking ahead to next March and bigger venues, are you using external venues already?
CD: We have used them a few times, but it's something that we are looking at a bit more. Particularly in Skipton, because we can't hold evening events there, because it's in the little shopping centre that gets locked up at six o’clock. It makes it more complicated because we have to pay to hire an external hall, which means that we then charge our customers, whereas we might not charge anything if it's just in our shop, it might just be the cost of the book. Yeah, sure. But I think people are happy to pay if it's something they want to go and see.
JR: Yeah, and you're getting some really big names. I mean, you had Cressida Cowell last year, didn’t you?
CD: Yeah, she did an event for us which we held up the road from the Chapel Allerton shop.
JR: That's just such an amazing opportunity for you and, I suppose, it really validates a lot of the hard work you've been putting in.
CD: Yeah, I think so. People come in and go, ‘How did you get there?’ Because we're just brilliant!
JR: For those who are slightly less aware of the area, could give us a picture of the bookselling landscape? How has it been having other booksellers locally and has that affected you in any way?
CD: Okay, so here at Chapel Allerton, we are just a couple of miles outside [Leeds] city centre. It feels like we're quite a different thing. I feel like because we are in a suburb, it feels like we're very much a community type of bookshop. We are there for the local community. I mean, people do come from outside the community, which is great, but I think we're lucky where we are because we’re amongst other independent shops. If you come to Skipton on Saturday morning, you'll see people queuing outside the butchers, outside the cheesemongers, outside the greengrocers. And then there's a toy shop and there are gift shops and there's a few clothes shops, lots of barbers and hairdressers and cafes. There are lots of independent shops where you can do your food shop and you can get presents for your kids' parties, or a treat for your kid at a toy shop or the bookshop or the children's shoe shop. I think people come to us for that kind of independent shop experience.
Whereas, if you're going to town, you're going to get Waterstones and you're going to get Next and you're going to get everything that you get in every other city centre, you could be everywhere really. So I think they're very different things.
There are others now since we've opened, a few more bookshops have opened in Leeds that are independent. I think we all do something slightly different and we complement each other. So yeah, I see it as a positive thing, really. I don't know, I think the population of Leeds is something like 750,000 people. I don't know. But that's a lot of people, and I think there are enough people to share.
JR: Yeah, and choice is important, isn't it? And any kind of suburb or village or town, with a high street that can support a butchers, a bakers, and a bookshop, must be doing something right. Have you found that in Skipton as well?
CD: Well, Skipton is a very different place because it's a town, but it's also very touristy. But there's also a market that's on four days a week all year round. So that brings a lot of people in on market days. But, a lot of those people are coming in looking for a bargain, so I'm not really sure if that helps or not. There are lots of different challenges. I think we're starting to have it in mind that it's just a different customer base.
But I've always been aware that we would need to tweak as we go along. I'm getting more and more like, ‘Okay, what we need are things for families on holiday’, we need to make sure we've got more activity books, sticker books and colouring books. And we've got our local interest section we've been expanding because people might want something about walking or the history of Skipton. So yes, I think it's sort of early days still, but that is what we're working on, making sure that we've got what is necessary for Skipton.
JR: Yeah, and you'll know from Chapel Allerton as well, that first year is kind of feeling out your audience and knowing what they're after, what they're looking for, what their tastes are. And your first six months to a year is making relationships with people and also relationships with the other traders on the high street.
CD: Yeah, absolutely. I'm trying to see where the peaks and the troughs are. Just work it out. And then the audience, the customers will change from day to day, because on non-market days, we've got more local people coming in. And during the holidays, we're going to have more tourists coming in. So I think even from one week to another we need to be a bit more aware of these changes.
Whereas in Chapel Allerton it's more stable, the customer base is largely the same. Obviously, at Christmas, they want more Christmasy books and gift books, but you know, we just know our audience a bit more. There's still a bit more work to do in Skipton.
JR: We've always said that bookselling is a different type of retail altogether. And I think it can be oddly weather dependent too. Your highest football days are when people are coming in, they've not got any other plans. A slightly overcast Saturday is perfect, isn't it?
CD: Absolutely. So when Dermot came, we had him the whole day and we took him to two school events and then a signing at the shop. I mean, he really did work hard. I think it's great because when you take an author to a school, particularly a primary school, they don't necessarily know who these people are. So Dermot, or another author who’s maybe not necessarily a household name, they just enjoy it and they think it's great. Then afterwards, the school will say that the kids are really inspired, and they're bringing in the stories that they've written since or the drawings or the illustrations they've been doing since then. It makes a positive, instant difference to the children. And I think it's really good when schools recognise that and actively seek out authors to bring into schools.
JR: Have you got a core list of local schools or are you trying to reach slightly further out as well?
CD: Yeah, we’re always trying to reach out to more schools, but we do have maybe a dozen, a few more schools around Leeds who we work with regularly. Either they buy books from us, we offer a great discount for schools, or we have authors in. We also have teacher's evenings once a term in the shop. We have guest speakers come in and talk about different things about reading and enjoying reading. And we say to schools, these are the sorts of things we've done before but if you've got an idea, something different, [we] will try and do it.
Yesterday I was in a school just outside Skipton, it's the school's aspiration week, sort of a career week, and we talked to them about owning a bookshop. We've done book fairs, all sorts of things. We've got a great idea coming up for the next World Book Day, where we’re doing a great big schools quiz and bringing everyone together to one venue. We'll have a particular reading list that we send back to schools. So yes, we’re always thinking about different ways of engaging with schools in order to give opportunities for the children to enjoy reading, and have the opportunity to read authors or different books that might not be on their radar. If they only ever hear about David Walliam's book, for instance, you know.
JR: It must feel really rewarding when you’re able to expand those horizons, and then they might come into the shop and say, ‘That's my new favourite author!’
CD: Yeah, exactly. They come in and they're like, ‘What's the next one in the series?’
JR: Yeah, that's amazing. I love that. So, if you're already looking ahead to next March and bigger venues, are you using external venues already?
CD: We have used them a few times, but it's something that we are looking at a bit more. Particularly in Skipton, because we can't hold evening events there, because it's in the little shopping centre that gets locked up at six o’clock. It makes it more complicated because we have to pay to hire an external hall, which means that we then charge our customers, whereas we might not charge anything if it's just in our shop, it might just be the cost of the book. Yeah, sure. But I think people are happy to pay if it's something they want to go and see.
JR: Yeah, and you're getting some really big names. I mean, you had Cressida Cowell last year, didn’t you?
CD: Yeah, she did an event for us which we held up the road from the Chapel Allerton shop.
JR: That's just such an amazing opportunity for you and, I suppose, it really validates a lot of the hard work you've been putting in.
CD: Yeah, I think so. People come in and go, ‘How did you get there?’ Because we're just brilliant!
JR: For those who are slightly less aware of the area, could give us a picture of the bookselling landscape? How has it been having other booksellers locally and has that affected you in any way?
CD: Okay, so here at Chapel Allerton, we are just a couple of miles outside [Leeds] city centre. It feels like we're quite a different thing. I feel like because we are in a suburb, it feels like we're very much a community type of bookshop. We are there for the local community. I mean, people do come from outside the community, which is great, but I think we're lucky where we are because we’re amongst other independent shops. If you come to Skipton on Saturday morning, you'll see people queuing outside the butchers, outside the cheesemongers, outside the greengrocers. And then there's a toy shop and there are gift shops and there's a few clothes shops, lots of barbers and hairdressers and cafes. There are lots of independent shops where you can do your food shop and you can get presents for your kids' parties, or a treat for your kid at a toy shop or the bookshop or the children's shoe shop. I think people come to us for that kind of independent shop experience.
Whereas, if you're going to town, you're going to get Waterstones and you're going to get Next and you're going to get everything that you get in every other city centre, you could be everywhere really. So I think they're very different things.
There are others now since we've opened, a few more bookshops have opened in Leeds that are independent. I think we all do something slightly different and we complement each other. So yeah, I see it as a positive thing, really. I don't know, I think the population of Leeds is something like 750,000 people. I don't know. But that's a lot of people, and I think there are enough people to share.
JR: Yeah, and choice is important, isn't it? And any kind of suburb or village or town, with a high street that can support a butchers, a bakers, and a bookshop, must be doing something right. Have you found that in Skipton as well?
CD: Well, Skipton is a very different place because it's a town, but it's also very touristy. But there's also a market that's on four days a week all year round. So that brings a lot of people in on market days. But, a lot of those people are coming in looking for a bargain, so I'm not really sure if that helps or not. There are lots of different challenges. I think we're starting to have it in mind that it's just a different customer base.
But I've always been aware that we would need to tweak as we go along. I'm getting more and more like, ‘Okay, what we need are things for families on holiday’, we need to make sure we've got more activity books, sticker books and colouring books. And we've got our local interest section we've been expanding because people might want something about walking or the history of Skipton. So yes, I think it's sort of early days still, but that is what we're working on, making sure that we've got what is necessary for Skipton.
JR: Yeah, and you'll know from Chapel Allerton as well, that first year is kind of feeling out your audience and knowing what they're after, what they're looking for, what their tastes are. And your first six months to a year is making relationships with people and also relationships with the other traders on the high street.
CD: Yeah, absolutely. I'm trying to see where the peaks and the troughs are. Just work it out. And then the audience, the customers will change from day to day, because on non-market days, we've got more local people coming in. And during the holidays, we're going to have more tourists coming in. So I think even from one week to another we need to be a bit more aware of these changes.
Whereas in Chapel Allerton it's more stable, the customer base is largely the same. Obviously, at Christmas, they want more Christmasy books and gift books, but you know, we just know our audience a bit more. There's still a bit more work to do in Skipton.
JR: We've always said that bookselling is a different type of retail altogether. And I think it can be oddly weather dependent too. Your highest football days are when people are coming in, they've not got any other plans. A slightly overcast Saturday is perfect, isn't it?
|
CD: Yes, yeah.
JR: And you've got your first summer at your Skipton shop to look forward to. CD: Yes, I've got my fingers tightly crossed. Everyone says it gets really busy, so yeah, we just need to make sure we've got the books that they want when they come in. JR: I want to talk a little bit about you next. Would you tell us a little bit about your background and how you got into bookselling? CD: Let me see. So, as a child, I read a lot. I did an English and Literature and History degree, but never really did particularly much with that, per se. I kind of went off and ended up working in admin. I worked at Leeds University for a long time, had children, and then I fancied a change, I’d had my third child, she was young and I decided to be a childminder for a couple of years. I thought I could just do kid things with her and another couple of kids as well. It'd be fun. So I did that and then when she went to school I thought I'd do something different, but I got two things from that. One: I just changed what I was doing, I did the training, I just did it and it worked. I didn't know if anyone would want me to childmind their children, you know, you just don't know. And they do. But it gave me that confidence that I can decide on what I want to do and as long as I put the work in and do what I need to do it will be okay. So it gave me that. And then the other thing it gave me was that feeling of being my own boss. And I really like that. So the two things combined, I was like, okay, so that's kind of what I want to do. What can I do with that? What else do I like? |
|
And that's kind of where it came from really. I was like, ‘Oh, I would love to have a bookshop.’ I guess a lot of people say that, don't they? But actually, I did. And that's kind of how it happened.
As part of my research, I did get in touch with Waterstones in Leeds and I asked if I could do some work experience there and they said yes, which was really kind of them. They knew why. I was like, ‘I’m opening a bookshop, can I come and work in your shop?’ and they said yes, and I was only there for a week or so but it really helped.
JR: It's a sensible thing to do.
CD: I’d never worked in a bookshop before, so it's quite a bit different between the idea of one and the reality of one. And, you know everyone has bad days, but sometimes if I feel like it's been a bad day, I think you should put that back into perspective.
JR: Yeah, it's not life or death, is it? That's one of the joys of the job. Your worst day is still probably somebody else's best day.
CD: Exactly, yeah. And actually, it's not very often. Normally when [people] come to a bookshop, it's a pleasurable thing choosing a book and looking at books. So people are normally quite happy.
JR: You know, the more of these interviews I do, the more I realise how generous booksellers are with their knowledge and how happy they are to share their experiences with others.
I know you’ve already mentioned the bookseller Facebook group, but when people like yourself need help, how do you reach out to the industry, are there any other booksellers or do you have someone to go to when you've got a problem?
CD: People are so generous with their help and advice. There are lots of things going on, lots of different talks and information sharing. The Booksellers Association conference is great, I love going to that. I also have a great relationship with Gardners. And there's also the reps from publishers, who are great, and Batchline, you know I’m paying for a service. But they do respond to queries. I mean, sometimes I do feel a little bit overwhelmed by just how much there is to do, but I think that's just the same as anything, like the running of the till system. But yeah, there isn't any way around that.
JR: I guess a lot of it is trial and error.
CD: Yeah, but the fact that there is a stock system there that I can use, I haven't had to come up with that myself. I was talking to a friend of mine who has a different sort of shop and I was just saying something about, the Booksellers Association, you know, that they are there to represent us in government or whatever, and they don’t have that in other retail industries. That is something that is unique to us, that they will fight our case, whether it's for business rates or making sure we've been helped over a lockdown period when essential shops are around.
I'm sure at times people feel like they're not doing this or the other, but I think on the whole, I think they do a really good job. All the sort of things that we have, you know, World Book Day and Independent Bookshop Week and all these extra things that they support us with. Yeah, it's great.
JR: Yeah, one hundred per cent. I don’t want to go too off-topic, I don't want to get too bogged down with the nuts and bolts of things, but you talked a little about your system and things like that. Do you use Batchline?
CD: Yeah, yeah.
JR: How have you found using that to set up a new shop?
CD: You know, it's been it's been pretty easy. Having ordered, got a shop, and knowing how the system works, it's been much easier the second time around. I actually did let my colleague Keighley put up Batchline on the phone, with Martin, I think it was, because she knows - she's younger than me, so she knows Batchline far better than I do. But yeah, it was fairly straightforward.
JR: It makes it slightly easier for training, doesn't it? I think, if you're bringing on new staff, having a centralised system like that makes it a lot easier.
CD: Yes, absolutely.
JR: OK, let’s end things on books. What kind of books do you like to read for pleasure?
CD: I like contemporary fiction. What I'm trying to do is to broaden my horizons a little bit, because, I don't know, the whole fantasy thing, I hadn't really come across that when I was younger. And obviously, it's a big genre now, so I am reading a fantasy book now which I’m quite enjoying. I've started reading some non-fiction as well which I've never really done, and I enjoy those which I didn't think I would.
JR: Are there one or two titles that you could mention?
CD: So I read, what was it called, How They Broke Britain [James O’Brien]. So yes, so sort of political, and that was interesting. Oh, I read The Trading Game: A Confession [Gary Stevenson] and that was really interesting, about a trader, he's now an equality economist and things, so I like his message. I enjoyed reading some non-fiction [but] I still read the genre that I like, and I’ve read some great great books. I’m trying fantasy. I want to read a bit more crime I've never really read a lot of crime books.
As part of my research, I did get in touch with Waterstones in Leeds and I asked if I could do some work experience there and they said yes, which was really kind of them. They knew why. I was like, ‘I’m opening a bookshop, can I come and work in your shop?’ and they said yes, and I was only there for a week or so but it really helped.
JR: It's a sensible thing to do.
CD: I’d never worked in a bookshop before, so it's quite a bit different between the idea of one and the reality of one. And, you know everyone has bad days, but sometimes if I feel like it's been a bad day, I think you should put that back into perspective.
JR: Yeah, it's not life or death, is it? That's one of the joys of the job. Your worst day is still probably somebody else's best day.
CD: Exactly, yeah. And actually, it's not very often. Normally when [people] come to a bookshop, it's a pleasurable thing choosing a book and looking at books. So people are normally quite happy.
JR: You know, the more of these interviews I do, the more I realise how generous booksellers are with their knowledge and how happy they are to share their experiences with others.
I know you’ve already mentioned the bookseller Facebook group, but when people like yourself need help, how do you reach out to the industry, are there any other booksellers or do you have someone to go to when you've got a problem?
CD: People are so generous with their help and advice. There are lots of things going on, lots of different talks and information sharing. The Booksellers Association conference is great, I love going to that. I also have a great relationship with Gardners. And there's also the reps from publishers, who are great, and Batchline, you know I’m paying for a service. But they do respond to queries. I mean, sometimes I do feel a little bit overwhelmed by just how much there is to do, but I think that's just the same as anything, like the running of the till system. But yeah, there isn't any way around that.
JR: I guess a lot of it is trial and error.
CD: Yeah, but the fact that there is a stock system there that I can use, I haven't had to come up with that myself. I was talking to a friend of mine who has a different sort of shop and I was just saying something about, the Booksellers Association, you know, that they are there to represent us in government or whatever, and they don’t have that in other retail industries. That is something that is unique to us, that they will fight our case, whether it's for business rates or making sure we've been helped over a lockdown period when essential shops are around.
I'm sure at times people feel like they're not doing this or the other, but I think on the whole, I think they do a really good job. All the sort of things that we have, you know, World Book Day and Independent Bookshop Week and all these extra things that they support us with. Yeah, it's great.
JR: Yeah, one hundred per cent. I don’t want to go too off-topic, I don't want to get too bogged down with the nuts and bolts of things, but you talked a little about your system and things like that. Do you use Batchline?
CD: Yeah, yeah.
JR: How have you found using that to set up a new shop?
CD: You know, it's been it's been pretty easy. Having ordered, got a shop, and knowing how the system works, it's been much easier the second time around. I actually did let my colleague Keighley put up Batchline on the phone, with Martin, I think it was, because she knows - she's younger than me, so she knows Batchline far better than I do. But yeah, it was fairly straightforward.
JR: It makes it slightly easier for training, doesn't it? I think, if you're bringing on new staff, having a centralised system like that makes it a lot easier.
CD: Yes, absolutely.
JR: OK, let’s end things on books. What kind of books do you like to read for pleasure?
CD: I like contemporary fiction. What I'm trying to do is to broaden my horizons a little bit, because, I don't know, the whole fantasy thing, I hadn't really come across that when I was younger. And obviously, it's a big genre now, so I am reading a fantasy book now which I’m quite enjoying. I've started reading some non-fiction as well which I've never really done, and I enjoy those which I didn't think I would.
JR: Are there one or two titles that you could mention?
CD: So I read, what was it called, How They Broke Britain [James O’Brien]. So yes, so sort of political, and that was interesting. Oh, I read The Trading Game: A Confession [Gary Stevenson] and that was really interesting, about a trader, he's now an equality economist and things, so I like his message. I enjoyed reading some non-fiction [but] I still read the genre that I like, and I’ve read some great great books. I’m trying fantasy. I want to read a bit more crime I've never really read a lot of crime books.
|
JR: I think book clubs help with that as well. I don't know if you've got a genre-focused book club, but a lot of book clubs like to gravitate towards crime, it seems.
CD: Yeah, well actually, It hasn't come up very much at the moment, but they're all quite general. Maybe I'll suggest a good crime book. It's just one of those things, I think it's easy to get stuck in the sort of books you read. That's the comfort zone. I know I'm going to like this. JR: Obviously, you're recommending books all the time, but what are your go-to staff recommendations? Is there maybe one or two titles that you could recommend to anybody, or maybe one or two that stand out as books you’ve recommended more often recently? CD: Definitely. However, I have a bit of a memory issue if I'm not in the shop. If someone says, ‘Can you recommend a book?’ I'm going to go look at the bookshelves for a minute or two. And I start off quite slowly, and then I've got like 30, and I'm like, I'm going to stop now. If I'm not in the shop, I really struggle to remember any. But having said that, Demon Copperhead [Barbara Kingsolver] has been hugely successful and I think that is really good. I think there have been some books that have been a bit Marmitey but have done well sales-wise, in my experience people who’ve bought them have either loved or not loved them, like Yellowface [Rebecca F Kuang]. Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, and Tomorrow [Gabrielle Zevin] has been hugely popular. If people haven't heard of it, I say, ‘It's about two friends who write games, they make video games’, and they look at me and go like, ‘Oh…’ And actually the only people I've known who’ve read this book have been women who aren't really into computer games and they've already enjoyed it. |
|
JR: Yeah, I love that. And, you know, I'm not a gamer at all, I didn’t have much video game knowledge going in, but I loved it. I thought it was such a great read, and you didn’t need that at all.
CD: I think that's one of the things that's good about it, it tells you a little bit about something you don't know much about. Without being boring, they've got the amount right. They imparted some information.
I just started last night, a book called My Husband [Maud Ventura]. I mean, I'm only a few chapters in, but it's a very different start. The main character is a teacher, she's also a translator. I was trying to work out if this was an English or American book. And then I'm like, oh, wait a minute, it's neither. It was a French book translated into English, but it's actually been translated into American English. So, she talks about, like, downtown. That's really interesting so it's a bit of a mystery and there are things you're kind of guessing, and on top of that, you're guessing who wrote this book and is she a translator as well.
JR: I love that. I’ve started gravitating more towards translated fiction quite a lot recently and it's not always on purpose, I'll just pick up a book that I like the sound of. And I love figuring out the differences, I love all those eccentricities of translation.
CD: Yes, yes, oh yeah, that reminds me of Babel [Rebecca F Kuang]. That's about a lot of translation, isn't it? I thought was interesting.
JR: Yeah, and you're talking fantasy again. Are you being drawn back to fantasy a little bit more now that you've sort of branched out a bit?
CD: Ah, you see, yeah, I wouldn't necessarily put Babel down as fantasy. But yeah, it will be, right?
JR: It's light fantasy, isn't it? I mean, that's the only kind of fantasy I can get away with. Something that dips its toe into that genre rather than being that high fantasy thing.
CD: Yes, yes, so that's maybe where I am. A little bit of fantasy, yeah. Well there you go, maybe I should just see how far I can go.
JR: So, my last questions are always a bit tricky so I'll let you choose which answer you want to give me. Either, which books are you most looking forward to this year, or, what are your bestsellers of the year so far?
CD: OK, let me think. The bestsellers, children’s, will definitely be comic books and graphic novels. There are out front runners, but for those children who really, really love them and come back in and we can show them a few more and it's expanding their horizons, that's been good. In terms of adult bestsellers, I mean, Demon Copperhead definitely has been, but probably more last year. Lessons in Chemistry [Bonnie Garmus].
JR: You've got that first wave of people who are maybe in bookshops quite often and they're seeing new books hit the shelves or they're reading the papers and they're looking at what's coming, then you've got that second wave of word of mouth, then you've got the book clubs which can be like six months to a year later. And I feel like Lessons in Chemistry is one of those books that just keeps hitting different people at different times.
CD: Yes, and in fact, in my last book club meeting, someone said we should be doing that book, and I think three-quarters of us had already read it. And we were like, ‘Well, should we read something different? Because, like, we've already read that.’
Oh, I tell you actually, I know what book has been, over the last couple of months, has been the biggest seller. It's a book that was not out until [September]. It is Bob Mortimer's new book [The Clementine Complex].
JR: Oh, of course, Bob. Absolutely, yeah.
CD: And we put it on pre-order and I think we have sold about 90 copies in hardback.
JR: That’s amazing, isn’t it?
CD: Yeah. However, I did have someone message me the other day saying she hasn't had a book yet!
JR: Ha, of course! I've spoken to a few people recently and Bob just seems to do something to people. I think he's got such an amazing fan base, doesn't he?
CD: He does, yeah. And like you say, you know, his other books still sell, he needs to go to my Father's Day table. I think he just spans lots of age groups. He's got charisma, hasn’t he? And he's very down-to-earth and very charismatic, in a very down-to-earth want him to be your friend, kind of way.
JR: Yeah, I've got quite a soft spot for him. I mean, I've seen him on the telly a lot and I’ve read his biography and I just think he's the kind of guy you could have a proper heart-to-heart with as well.
CD: Yes, yeah, when you see his Gone Fishing, it’s a very gentle program, isn't it? And, you know, the scenery is lovely and has a laugh. But yeah, like you say, he can also have emotions. And I guess that’s what draws people to his books as well.
CD: I think that's one of the things that's good about it, it tells you a little bit about something you don't know much about. Without being boring, they've got the amount right. They imparted some information.
I just started last night, a book called My Husband [Maud Ventura]. I mean, I'm only a few chapters in, but it's a very different start. The main character is a teacher, she's also a translator. I was trying to work out if this was an English or American book. And then I'm like, oh, wait a minute, it's neither. It was a French book translated into English, but it's actually been translated into American English. So, she talks about, like, downtown. That's really interesting so it's a bit of a mystery and there are things you're kind of guessing, and on top of that, you're guessing who wrote this book and is she a translator as well.
JR: I love that. I’ve started gravitating more towards translated fiction quite a lot recently and it's not always on purpose, I'll just pick up a book that I like the sound of. And I love figuring out the differences, I love all those eccentricities of translation.
CD: Yes, yes, oh yeah, that reminds me of Babel [Rebecca F Kuang]. That's about a lot of translation, isn't it? I thought was interesting.
JR: Yeah, and you're talking fantasy again. Are you being drawn back to fantasy a little bit more now that you've sort of branched out a bit?
CD: Ah, you see, yeah, I wouldn't necessarily put Babel down as fantasy. But yeah, it will be, right?
JR: It's light fantasy, isn't it? I mean, that's the only kind of fantasy I can get away with. Something that dips its toe into that genre rather than being that high fantasy thing.
CD: Yes, yes, so that's maybe where I am. A little bit of fantasy, yeah. Well there you go, maybe I should just see how far I can go.
JR: So, my last questions are always a bit tricky so I'll let you choose which answer you want to give me. Either, which books are you most looking forward to this year, or, what are your bestsellers of the year so far?
CD: OK, let me think. The bestsellers, children’s, will definitely be comic books and graphic novels. There are out front runners, but for those children who really, really love them and come back in and we can show them a few more and it's expanding their horizons, that's been good. In terms of adult bestsellers, I mean, Demon Copperhead definitely has been, but probably more last year. Lessons in Chemistry [Bonnie Garmus].
JR: You've got that first wave of people who are maybe in bookshops quite often and they're seeing new books hit the shelves or they're reading the papers and they're looking at what's coming, then you've got that second wave of word of mouth, then you've got the book clubs which can be like six months to a year later. And I feel like Lessons in Chemistry is one of those books that just keeps hitting different people at different times.
CD: Yes, and in fact, in my last book club meeting, someone said we should be doing that book, and I think three-quarters of us had already read it. And we were like, ‘Well, should we read something different? Because, like, we've already read that.’
Oh, I tell you actually, I know what book has been, over the last couple of months, has been the biggest seller. It's a book that was not out until [September]. It is Bob Mortimer's new book [The Clementine Complex].
JR: Oh, of course, Bob. Absolutely, yeah.
CD: And we put it on pre-order and I think we have sold about 90 copies in hardback.
JR: That’s amazing, isn’t it?
CD: Yeah. However, I did have someone message me the other day saying she hasn't had a book yet!
JR: Ha, of course! I've spoken to a few people recently and Bob just seems to do something to people. I think he's got such an amazing fan base, doesn't he?
CD: He does, yeah. And like you say, you know, his other books still sell, he needs to go to my Father's Day table. I think he just spans lots of age groups. He's got charisma, hasn’t he? And he's very down-to-earth and very charismatic, in a very down-to-earth want him to be your friend, kind of way.
JR: Yeah, I've got quite a soft spot for him. I mean, I've seen him on the telly a lot and I’ve read his biography and I just think he's the kind of guy you could have a proper heart-to-heart with as well.
CD: Yes, yeah, when you see his Gone Fishing, it’s a very gentle program, isn't it? And, you know, the scenery is lovely and has a laugh. But yeah, like you say, he can also have emotions. And I guess that’s what draws people to his books as well.
|
Show your support and book-love to Cheryl and the whole Little Bookshop team by paying them a visit online or in person. head to their website for more kids event news, book recommendations & more! |
